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  1. #1
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    Were Brasseur & Eisler underrated

    While I wasnt a big fan of them when they skated looking back I think Brasseur & Eisler were undermarked, atleast on technical scores. They had the strongest lifts, strongest twists, strongest death spirals, hardest spins, yet their technical marks were often lower than other bigger name pairs, even when they skated cleanly.

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    They had great tricks. But they didn't have the best speed, edge quality or other elements that also count as part of the technical score.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    They had great tricks. But they didn't have the best speed, edge quality or other elements that also count as part of the technical score.
    They also completely ate it at the 1992 Olympics and robbed Kovarikova and Novotny of the bronze. Now that was an underrated pair. B&E were fun to watch at times, but I tend to think of them in the vein of Shen and Zhao pre-2003.

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    My answer is yes in some aspects, no in others. In terms of personal enjoyment, just sitting down to watch and be entertained, B/E are one of my all-time favorite pairs teams. Looking back, I do think they were marked correctly for the most part. The things that Prancer listed were counted (I think, mostly) under the tech mark back then, which offset the things that Gabybackhand listed off. I think, for the most part, they were fairly marked at the time they were competing. A few gifts, maybe cheated here and there from time-to-time, but in the end, mostly where they needed to be.

    Where I think B/E tend to get underrated is when people go back and talk about teams of the past and how they fit in. I think in that aspect, people do tend to forget about the things that B/E did extremely well. IMO, when you're just talking about the lifts, B/E are one of the greatest teams when it came to that element. Might I add that those lifts just weren't based on size differential either--they were difficult and executed superbly. No, they're not one of the overall all-time great pairs teams, but they are one of the overall all-time very good pairs.
    Last edited by aka_gerbil; 04-21-2013 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka_gerbil View Post
    My answer is yes in some aspects, no in others. In terms of personal enjoyment, just sitting down to watch and be entertained, B/E are one of my all-time favorite pairs teams. Looking back, I do think they were marked correctly for the most part. The things that Prancer listed were counted (I think, mostly) under the tech mark back then, which offset the things that Gabybackhand listed off. I think, for the most part, they were fairly marked at the time they were competing. A few gifts, maybe cheated here and there from time-to-time, but in the end, mostly where they needed to be.

    Where I think B/E tend to get underrated is when people go back and talk about teams of the past and how they fit in. I think in that aspect, people do tend to forget about the things that B/E did extremely well. IMO, when you're just talking about the lifts, B/E are one of the greatest teams when it came to that element. Might I had that those lifts just weren't based on size differential either--they were difficult and executed superbly. No, they're not one of the overall all-time great pairs teams, but they are one of the overall all-time very good pairs.
    ^^ Well Written!

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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    They also completely ate it at the 1992 Olympics and robbed Kovarikova and Novotny of the bronze.
    I didn't realize B&E judged the event and awarded themselves a bronze medal.

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    I saw them skate many times and in my opinion they are one of the all-time greats, so in that respect I'd say they are under-rated certainly by the current group of fs fans. In addition to spectacular lifts, everything they did was done at great speed, they had original and unique spins and entrances to them, as well as a great on-ice connection. I thought they could have won in Halifax in 1990 but they were up against G&G, and one mistake - Lloyd singling a double axel - was all it took to lose them the gold in 1991. I think the judges thought quite highly of them and did mark them reasonably, but unfortunately they were competing against two of the best Russian teams ever. They deserve cudos for always staying competitive with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueglass View Post
    I saw them skate many times and in my opinion they are one of the all-time greats, so in that respect I'd say they are under-rated certainly by the current group of fs fans. In addition to spectacular lifts, everything they did was done at great speed, they had original and unique spins and entrances to them, as well as a great on-ice connection. I thought they could have won in Halifax in 1990 but they were up against G&G, and one mistake - Lloyd singling a double axel - was all it took to lose them the gold in 1991. I think the judges thought quite highly of them and did mark them reasonably, but unfortunately they were competing against two of the best Russian teams ever. They deserve cudos for always staying competitive with them.
    I personally doubt they could've won the 91 worlds with Lloyd doing a double axel rather than his single. As brilliant as they were in many of the pair moves, that free program was not their best even by their standards. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I strongly disagree with you about their speed (I found them really slow). I think part of my problem with them was (and yes, I know this sounds mean) they (along with Elvis Stojko) always struck me as trailer park trash.

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    I don't think they were underrated. If at all anything, they were gifted the 1992 Olympic bronze medal. They had great lifts but that's about it. Unfortunately for them, the 6.0 system did not give a lot of extra points (placement) for lifts. Throws, sbs jumps, unison, posture & line, edge quality and speed were valued more, as they should have been). As pros they were entertaining but in terms of skating skills they were not cream of the crop. They had a pretty good career- world silver medallists (2x or 3x?)), Olympic bronze medallists (twice), 1-time world champions. I don't see that as underrated.

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    Lloyd's attitude stopped me from enjoying this pair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Lloyd's attitude stopped me from enjoying this pair.
    I can understand that, but what does personal enjoyment have to do with whether or not a team was marked and regarded fairly in terms of their athletic ability? If we're going to treat skating as a sport, then our personal feelings about the skaters's personalities, etc. can't enter into the assessments about the skating part of things. All sports--basketball, football, hockey, golf, swimming, etc.--are full of people who aren't that great in their personal lives and actions. We don't use personal life or personality in determining winners elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I personally doubt they could've won the 91 worlds with Lloyd doing a double axel rather than his single. As brilliant as they were in many of the pair moves, that free program was not their best even by their standards.
    If I recall correctly, Llloyd needed (knee?) surgery after 1990 Worlds but they delayed it until late in the summer (because they were skating in shows), and it turned out he required more extensive surgery and their preparation for the 90-91 season was affected.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I think part of my problem with them was (and yes, I know this sounds mean) they (along with Elvis Stojko) always struck me as trailer park trash.
    I don't think that's fair, particularly to Isabelle who has been nothing but classy on the ice and in her personal life, AFAIK. And as aka_gerbil says, it shouldn't have mattered in terms of marks anyway.

    I'm far from a fan of B&E - I would've given their Olympic medals to K&N and S&N. But the rough quality that I think you're talking about was very exciting, especially in galas. They were always a highlight at COI. There is a long tradition IMO of Canadian pairs with excellent lifts and pairs elements who didn't develop the fluidity and basics of their Russian counterparts. Of these, I would say B&E were the best by far.

    My answer is they were not underrated in terms of the overall judging, but are underrated by some fans for the type of team they were and their place in history.

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    Kudos to Isabelle if she was classy (no sarcasm intended at all). But stylistically, I found them rather rough. I guess they just weren't to my taste.

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    Other than the 1990 Worlds, which was sort of a mess from a judging standpoint, both B&E AND M&D could have won (arguably), I can't recall an eligible competition where they were undermarked - although, I didn't go back prior to 1990 and I've never watched Canadian nationals, beyond certain performances.

    I will say that as difficult and consistent as their lifts were, Isabelle didn't always have great air positions - some times her legs were not straight with pointed toes, that might be splitting hairs but when they were compared to G&G, M&D and even K&N - it's a noticeable difference...

    She seems a lovely person, him, not so much...

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    No and they had the bad luck of being in an era with two of the greatest pairs in the history of the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lao1234 View Post
    I will say that as difficult and consistent as their lifts were, Isabelle didn't always have great air positions - some times her legs were not straight with pointed toes, that might be splitting hairs but when they were compared to G&G, M&D and even K&N - it's a noticeable difference...

    She seems a lovely person, him, not so much...
    You forgot to mention the lovely Shishkova (and Naumov) who had the best pointed toes and postures in her lifts.

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    You forgot to mention the lovely Shishkova (and Naumov) who had the best pointed toes and postures in her lifts.
    I did - and as you said, they BOTH had great posture...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    They had great tricks. But they didn't have the best speed, edge quality or other elements that also count as part of the technical score.
    Yes.
    This is why my short answer is, NO.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave of the North View Post
    If I recall correctly, Llloyd needed (knee?) surgery after 1990 Worlds but they delayed it until late in the summer (because they were skating in shows), and it turned out he required more extensive surgery and their preparation for the 90-91 season was affected.
    I didn't recall correctly Lloyd injured his knee playing hockey in Dec 1990 and was still wearing a brace by the time worlds rolled around. That contributed to him singling the axel. Whether it was the whole reason for not winning is another discussion.

    He was advised to have surgery after the injury but with the brace he was able to complete and then they did the two tours after Worlds. Then he had the surgery which turned out more extensive etc. They missed Trophee Lalique and he was still wearing the brace at Nations Cup.

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