View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions

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  • Grishuk & Platov

    4 1.22%
  • Krylova & Ovsiannikov

    10 3.06%
  • Anissina & Peizerat

    5 1.53%
  • Navka & Kostomarov

    119 36.39%
  • Denkova & Staviski

    126 38.53%
  • Virtue & Moir

    63 19.27%
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    V&M obviously have better body types for dance and are a better match physically for CoP elements, but they could only dream of getting the push to the blade and deepness of edges that D&S could. Like DelSchoes, if marked properly, they would have a more impressive record.
    I have to defend Virtue & Moir here. They have better body types for dance in terms of leanness (and why not, since Virtue actually was a ballet dancer), but they are pretty close in height, and much more so than DelSchoes though not DenSta. In fact V&M struggled with CoP lifts the first couple of seasons, and made tremendous improvements there in 2008, and now have some of the best lifts in the world. It's not only amazing to me that they can do the million changes of positions in one lift to get levels a la D&W, but that Virtue manages to have a perfect, fully extended position during every millisecond and even during the transitional points, something that Davis, Delobel, or Denkova could never do (and Navka was often stumbly coming in and out of lifts). And during all those position changes, Scott is always on a deep and secure edge, just like Olivier and Maxim.

    I also disagree about the depth and power of V&M's edges. IMO power is a major reason why V&M beat DelSchoes in the FD in 2008 (it certainly wasn't transitions since V&M had none that season ). As for cleanness of the edges, just look at all the level 4 footworks V&M have collected.

    V&M managed top 6 in their first senior Worlds. N&K did not achieve this until their 4th Worlds (Navka's 9th), DenSta until their 5th (Denkova's 9th).

    In contrast, teams like A&P did it on their second try, K&O on their first (Krylova also won bronze in a first attempt with Fedorov), and G&P on their first (Platov's second). IMO these teams and Virtue/Moir are more naturally talented.

  2. #22
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    I would like to add to Cherub's line of thought, if I may? Tessa was 17 and Scott 19 when they came 6th, 18 and 20 when they took silver (1st in FD), 19 and 21 when they won bronze after she had double leg surgery, 20 and 22 when they won OGM and World's, 21 and 23 when they took silver after only one competition and another double leg surgery for Tess, and 22and 24 when they won 2nd World's, with the possibility for even more. K & O won 2 WCH DenStav 2 WCh. How can they possibly be weaker than any of the other skaters in this group?

  3. #23
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    I loved L/T though. While I disagree with Susie Wynne calling them "an unheralded team" that should be in the top 5-6, L/T were certainly not overmarked. Their 2001 OD and FD were both superb.

    One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).
    ITA. That was such a great time for ice dancing. Everyone in the top 15 or so was good. I would include Winkler & Lohse, Drobiazko & Vanagas, and Chait & Sakhnovsky there. Also, although they went on to medal in 2006, Grushina & Goncharov and Navka & Kostomarov had more interesting FDs during this period.

    Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    ITA. That was such a great time for ice dancing. Everyone in the top 15 or so was good. I would include Winkler & Lohse, Drobiazko & Vanagas, and Chait & Sakhnovsky there. Also, although they went on to medal in 2006, Grushina & Goncharov and Navka & Kostomarov had more interesting FDs during this period.

    Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event.
    Word...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post

    Today we're lucky to have 1-2 interesting teams in the whole event.
    My feelings exactly.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I loved L/T though. While I disagree with Susie Wynne calling them "an unheralded team" that should be in the top 5-6, L/T were certainly not overmarked. Their 2001 OD and FD were both superb.

    One of my favorite parts of the 2000-2002 phase was the middle-ranked teams. Lang/Tchernyshev, Denkova/Staviski, Dubreuil/Lauzon, and Delobel/Schoenfelder all produced innovative, memorable programs. Although they weren't able to challenge the top 5 at the time, their programs for me were as memorable as those of the top 5 (A/P, F-P/M, L/A, B/K, and D/V).
    This^....(Out of reps for ya)

    Loved L and T's OD from 01 Worlds..It's a dance that I watch over and over again.

  8. #28
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    F/S in 2003, and G/P and the Kerrs in 2004 were amazing too. I often feel like the middle-ranked teams produce the best interesting programs, but their programs become tamer and more judge-friendly as they reach medal contention.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    F/S in 2003, and G/P and the Kerrs in 2004 were amazing too. I often feel like the middle-ranked teams produce the best interesting programs, but their programs become tamer and more judge-friendly as they reach medal contention.
    I tend to agree with this about the programs. Somewhat of an exception: Pechalat/Bourzat, although Organ Donor is more voidy than their more recent programs too.

    Just for the record, I haaaaated Lang and Tschernyshev and will never voluntarily watch another program of theirs. Zzzz.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I have to defend Virtue & Moir here. They have better body types for dance in terms of leanness (and why not, since Virtue actually was a ballet dancer), but they are pretty close in height, and much more so than DelSchoes though not DenSta. In fact V&M struggled with CoP lifts the first couple of seasons, and made tremendous improvements there in 2008, and now have some of the best lifts in the world. It's not only amazing to me that they can do the million changes of positions in one lift to get levels a la D&W, but that Virtue manages to have a perfect, fully extended position during every millisecond and even during the transitional points, something that Davis, Delobel, or Denkova could never do (and Navka was often stumbly coming in and out of lifts). And during all those position changes, Scott is always on a deep and secure edge, just like Olivier and Maxim.

    I also disagree about the depth and power of V&M's edges. IMO power is a major reason why V&M beat DelSchoes in the FD in 2008 (it certainly wasn't transitions since V&M had none that season ). As for cleanness of the edges, just look at all the level 4 footworks V&M have collected.

    V&M managed top 6 in their first senior Worlds. N&K did not achieve this until their 4th Worlds (Navka's 9th), DenSta until their 5th (Denkova's 9th).

    In contrast, teams like A&P did it on their second try, K&O on their first (Krylova also won bronze in a first attempt with Fedorov), and G&P on their first (Platov's second). IMO these teams and Virtue/Moir are more naturally talented.
    Maybe I miss the post about V/M being less worthy (which is absolutely ridiculous).They are extremely talented and your contra argument was great . About the lifts :at the time N/K, both D/S (Ah,those were the times)and most of the top teams were trying to be innovative the same way K/O,G/P,A/P,L/A did earlier and V/M, D/W ,P/B ,K/N and etc. did later and some of them still keep trying to make something different. it is just that nowadays the lifts are more acrobatic. Yet ,as we can see in the professional shows all those of the “old guard” are also capable of doing those lifts and it’s not like the male partners need extra help neither the girls are clinging for dear life on their headbands or whatever. All of them are as athletic and skilful as ever.))
    Last edited by vivika1982; 07-17-2012 at 03:15 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Out of curiosity, would you have both D/S' on the podium in place of B/A and G/G, or just one?
    I would have had D&S's 1/ 2, N&K third, B&A 4th, Dom/Shabs 5th, who cares after that.

    I also disagree about the depth and power of V&M's edges. IMO power is a major reason why V&M beat DelSchoes in the FD in 2008 (it certainly wasn't transitions since V&M had none that season ). As for cleanness of the edges, just look at all the level 4 footworks V&M have collected.
    I already acknowledged in the last round that 2008 Worlds was DelSchoes's most conservative performance ever, which is what makes their win bittersweet. V&M absolutely outskated D&S, and I had no problem with them winning the FD under the rules of this system. Just like under this system, I accept that even a 100% DelSchoes, nor anyone else, were going to beat V&M at the Olympics. I'm looking at the best of each team, particularly if you look at their best compulsories. Don't get me wrong, V&M are exceptional skaters, and more consistent skaters, there is just something that DelSchoes do with the blade that sets them apart for me. Obviously, it's not a widely held opinion.

    Plus, weren't Delschoes the first team to get level 4 for their footwork in like 2004/2005 and then the ISU completely changed the level requirements the next season?

    Their 2001 OD and FD were both superb.
    I agree that their OD was the best thing they ever did, and the only time ever in their career that I feel you can argue that they were *slightly* under marked. But he was absolutely pulling her through parts of that FD, and especially towards the end where it looks like she holding on for dear life in the circular footwork. Plus she screwed up the ending. The fact that they made their programs *less* difficult after that says something.

    but at least Naomi was always very elegant.
    She...was?

    I do want say in defense of Denkova, her style improved a lot with Linichuk. Compare 2005 and earlier to 2007 worlds OD and FD.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    I already acknowledged in the last round that 2008 Worlds was DelSchoes's most conservative performance ever, which is what makes their win bittersweet. V&M absolutely outskated D&S, and I had no problem with them winning the FD under the rules of this system. Just like under this system, I accept that even a 100% DelSchoes, nor anyone else, were going to beat V&M at the Olympics. I'm looking at the best of each team, particularly if you look at their best compulsories. Don't get me wrong, V&M are exceptional skaters, and more consistent skaters, there is just something that DelSchoes do with the blade that sets them apart for me. Obviously, it's not a widely held opinion.
    I can respect that, since you're acknowledging V&M's skating skills. I took your first post as a bit more dismissive of V&M than I think it was intended to be. I understand how you can think DelSchoes, at certain times, were better, especially in compulsories.

    V&M's CDs were already very good in 2008-10, at such a young age, and I think it's quite incredible considering they started at a time when CDs were less and less important (for example doing only 1 CD per competition whereas teams of the past had to do 2 or 3). I REALLY wish the CDs hadn't been dropped in their time, because by the time they retired, they would have improved even more, and we'll never get to see that. The SD pattern is SO NOT the same, ugh. I look at couples like D&L who had great CDs by the end of their career even though they were by no means great technicians, so I can't imagine how good V&M would've gotten by their age. So at least you got to enjoy that aspect of DelSchoes skating until their retirement.

  13. #33
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    Since it's likely that N&K will be eliminated this round, I'll take the opportunity to post a link to one of fav performances of them:
    1999 - Worlds - OD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rg6OQGds6E&feature=plcp

  14. #34
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    Wow is this ever close. Navka might survive after all.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Wow is this ever close. Navka might survive after all.
    I truly can't comprehend how posters can rally to save N&K, but not Plushy.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I truly can't comprehend how posters can rally to save N&K, but not Plushy.
    I guess people think Navka was the better diva and prettier.

  17. #37
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    Save Navka!!!
    And I will make more headband photos if necessary

  18. #38

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    Sorry to see this. N&K are one of my least favorite world champions. And I have always loved Denkova & Staviyski, especially their 2003 OD.

    It's a sad day.

  19. #39
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    N/K almost caused me to give up on ice dance..

  20. #40
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    For me it was the other way round, I took a break from ice-dancing after N&K left competition. lol
    Anyway, since 2006 that I've been following their pro career.

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