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  1. #81
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    As for SS, you should watch upper body as well as feet.
    Skaters who have great balance on blades have no tension in upper body and use their arms freely&diversely. Like Lambiel, Abbott, Kim, Kwan.

    A wonderful example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y
    Last edited by t.mann; 07-20-2012 at 06:46 AM.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Korpi, on the other hand, has mediocre and quite weak skating skills (she's generally totally overrated on the PCS due to SWP bonus :/) and I am disappointed to see you place her so highly, Marco.
    It's hard to look at her feet while she is skating

    But while she is not as good as Lepisto, I enjoy her precision and smoothness. I think her Over the Rainbow program highlighted her strengths in SS very well.

  3. #83
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    Very interesting discussion about skating skills. Thank you!!

  4. #84
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    In the video of slutskayas 2002 worlds sp, did she flutz AND lip?

  5. #85
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    Korpi's skating skills have improved dramatically over the years. Her speed and sureness are decent. She needs to get into her knees more. However, her jumping technique is horrendous, especially on the harder toe jumps. I think that's why she will never be a contender.

    I think the same can be said about her countrywoman Laura Lepisto. Her world bronze was a total gift. Her flip and Lutz and even Salchow weren't really there. But she had good speed, posture and edging.

    Want to see some solid skating skills? The post Soviet ladies of the mid to late 90s: Markova, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Lautowa, and Malinina.
    Last edited by all_empty; 07-21-2012 at 04:01 AM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipforsynchro View Post
    In the video of slutskayas 2002 worlds sp, did she flutz AND lip?
    No, she didn't. Her flip always had proper edge and lutz was taken off usually from flat or slight outside.

  7. #87

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    Best
    Carolina Kostner

    Great
    Akiko Suzuki
    Laura Lepisto
    Yuna Kim

    Very good
    Joannie Rochette
    Mao Asada
    Michelle Kwan
    Irina Slutskaya
    Mirai Nagasu

    Good
    Ashley Wagner
    Miki Ando
    Yukari Nakano
    Alissa Czisny
    Kiira Korpi

    Average
    Kimmie Meissner
    Sarah Meier

    Less than average
    Rachel Flatt
    Sasha Cohen

  8. #88
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    Best:
    1.Kostner
    2.Lepisto
    3.Czisny
    4.Rochette
    5.Korpi

    Great:
    6.Kwan
    7.Nakano
    8.Kim
    9.Asada
    10.Suzuki

    Good:
    11.Wagner
    12.Nagasu
    13.Hughes
    14.Meissner
    15.Slutskaya

    The rest:
    16.Ando
    17.Meier
    18.Cohen
    19.Flatt

  9. #89
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    Gold Standard (they epitomize what is exemplary in skating skills):
    1. Janet Lynn
    2. Yuka Sato

    Excellent/Outstanding (worth watching for the bladework alone; "skater's skaters"):
    3. Carolina Kostner
    4. Laura Lepisto
    5. Joannie Rochette
    6. Kiira Korpi
    7. Yukari Nakano
    8. Akiko Suzuki

    Great (very good, but they won their titles/medals with other aspects of their skating):
    9. Irina Slutskaya
    10. Yuna Kim
    11. Michelle Kwan
    12. Sarah Meier
    13. Mirai Nagasu

    Good (fully acceptable for a modern senior lady, but lacking in some area or another (speed, edge control, posture, etc))
    14. Alissa Czisny (would be much higher on the list if she just picked up some speed; she used to be a lot better)
    15. Ashley Wagner

    Average (acceptable for a senior lady, but nothing to write home about)
    16. Miki Ando
    17. Emily Hughes
    18. Kimmie Meissner

    Bad (glaring flaws, noticeably below par for a senior lady)
    19. Sarah Hughes
    20. Rachael Flatt (slooooooooooooow)
    21. Sasha Cohen (HOW IS EDGE FORMED?!)

    Garbage (garbage)
    22. Surya Bonaly

  10. #90

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    Seeing Kwan move across the ice in many of her exhibitions make me rank her as one of the top in skating skills.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Bad (glaring flaws, noticeably below par for a senior lady)
    19. Sarah Hughes
    20. Rachael Flatt (slooooooooooooow)
    21. Sasha Cohen (HOW IS EDGE FORMED?!)
    Leaving out her toe jumps, which did indeed have glaring flaws, how was Sarah Hughes's SKATING at the peak of her competitive career noticeably below par for a senior lady? I'd certainly move her up by a couple of categories in your hierarchy.

    For the other two here as well, I think when you say "below par for a senior lady" you mean a world-class, medal-hopeful senior lady.

    There are lots of senior ladies who compete nationally, or even internationally if they're from small countries, who do some triple jumps, but are weaker than those.

    To me, "bad for a senior lady," means deserving of Skating Skills scores in the 3s or 4s. Even if Cohen was overmarked in that area when she competed under IJS, she was surely better than that.


    I should also add that I have an issue with this question as it was asked in general. It's hard to rank the "skating skills" of skaters who had long careers because their skill level did not remain stagnant. E.g., Michelle Kwan of 2003 was a very different skater from Michelle Kwan of 1993. But the differences don't have to be even that glaring.

    Even from one competition to the next in the same year, or from one program to the next in the same competition, some skaters will show visible differences in how well they're skating, sometimes connected to the success of the jumps and sometimes not.

    So we may be thinking of different performances when we disagree about the quality of a particular skater's skating.

    It would be more meaningful to rank or compare the skating skills of specific performances. We could all look at the same videos and compare the same things. But posters who have seen some or all of these skaters live have more significant data to go by than what's evident on video. However we haven't all seen the same performances live, so again we're not all going to have the same impressions.

    And then, quite apart from this thread, skating skill is a complex enough category that there will always be differences in which aspects any one observer notices most or weights most strongly when evaluating.
    Last edited by gkelly; 07-26-2012 at 04:11 PM.

  12. #92
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    BEST
    Carolina Kostner

    EXCELLENT
    Michelle Kwan
    Mirai Nagasu
    Akiko Suzuki

    VERY GOOD
    Mao Asada
    Yuna Kim
    Joannie Rochette
    Laura Lepisto
    Irina Slutskaya

    Everyone else asking to be ranked

    Will there be a Men's version of this thread, too?

  13. #93
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    ^ There was, but that died out...

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Leaving out her toe jumps, which did indeed have glaring flaws, how was Sarah Hughes's SKATING at the peak of her competitive career noticeably below par for a senior lady? I'd certainly move her up by a couple of categories in your hierarchy.
    She always seemed extremely stiff, usually quite high in her knees, and she used lots of two-foot skating and not a lot of interesting choreography, bladework wise. I think in this list she kind of suffers a bit because she wasn't a COP skater given when she retired, and unlike Michelle or Ira, she didn't really push the envelope in terms of her footwork/transitions/overall choreography for a 6.0 skater of her era. Compared to skaters who grew up under COP and have equivalent level skating skills, she wasn't performing programs that were that difficult, and compared to the ladies on the list who did compete in 6.0, all of them have better skating skills and most of them consistently did harder programs than she did.

    For the other two here as well, I think when you say "below par for a senior lady" you mean a world-class, medal-hopeful senior lady.
    Well, yeah. I thought that was a given, given who's on the poll. Other than Surya, they're all far better than the standard needed to, say, pass the Gold Moves test.

    To me the COP footwork/programs vs 6.0 programs definitely throws a monkeywrench into it, too. Whether you like COP or not, most of the programs are just head and shoulders above 6.0 programs in terms of the actual skating demanded, so I feel like that has to count for something.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    She always seemed extremely stiff, usually quite high in her knees, and she used lots of two-foot skating and not a lot of interesting choreography, bladework wise.
    See, and my impression at the time was that Hughes had softer knees and used a lot more edge-based transitions than many of her peers -- e.g., Butyrskaya, Cohen, Sokolova, Volchkova, Kirk -- even Suguri's skating seemed stiffer and shallower to me, albeit faster -- as well as her sister and Alissa Czisny, whom you put into higher categories. So I guess we weren't even seeing the same things, let alone interpreting them the same.

    Move S. Hughes up by two groupings and I'll agree with your rankings but not with how you label them.

    Well, yeah. I thought that was a given, given who's on the poll.
    In which case, the range of skating skills should go from outstanding down to above average (or "acceptable/average for a world-class senior lady" not for "a senior lady" in general as you stated), certainly not down to Bad.

    For the most part we're talking about skaters who would deserve at least 6.0 ("above average") on the IJS scale.

    Bonaly it's hard to say. She was able to make up with speed and athleticism for deficiencies in technique. Snark as we might about the weak edge quality, I suspect that several of the skaters on that list would have been unable to do this

    To me the COP footwork/programs vs 6.0 programs definitely throws a monkeywrench into it, too. Whether you like COP or not, most of the programs are just head and shoulders above 6.0 programs in terms of the actual skating demanded, so I feel like that has to count for something.
    I'll agree with you there, certainly in aggregate if not every specific case.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    See, and my impression at the time was that Hughes had softer knees and used a lot more edge-based transitions than many of her peers -- e.g., Butyrskaya, Cohen, Sokolova, Volchkova, Kirk -- even Suguri's skating seemed stiffer and shallower to me, albeit faster -- as well as her sister and Alissa Czisny, whom you put into higher categories. So I guess we weren't even seeing the same things, let alone interpreting them the same.
    Hughes would stack up well against second tier skaters of the time like Cohen, Sokolova, Volchkova and Kirk, but not against Kwan IMO. Butyrskaya did have stiffer knees and less complexity in her skating, but overall I think she had better edge quality and posture. I don't think Hughes looked effortless or controlled at all while skating. I would put Hughes around the same league as Slutskaya and Suguri (maybe between them), although Slutskaya usually gained more power from each stroke.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I would put Hughes around the same league as Slutskaya and Suguri (maybe between them), although Slutskaya usually gained more power from each stroke.
    I pretty much agree with that. Hughes had good edges, above average speed, got down in her knees well, but like Slutskaya it looked laborious.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I pretty much agree with that. Hughes had good edges, above average speed, got down in her knees well, but like Slutskaya it looked laborious.
    You must be watching a different Slutskaya than me. She's very fast and pawerful yet efortless and controlled at the same time. Besides, she has perfect mastery of one foot skating and multi-directional skating, and sure, solid deep edges.

  19. #99
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    Once again - thank you for this thread, smarts1. I am really interested in this part of figure skating technique, more so than in jumps, I must admit. A really interesting read.

    And it would be great if you could make a new SS thread for men, as mine died down so quickly.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    You must be watching a different Slutskaya than me. She's very fast and pawerful yet efortless and controlled at the same time. Besides, she has perfect mastery of one foot skating and multi-directional skating, and sure, solid deep edges.
    We've been through this on other threads, but you obviously don't know what "effortless" means. One important hallmarks of FS, which makes skating special and different from any other sport, is the ability to glide across a surface without looking like you're trying and without the quick or jerky muscle movements that you would see in a runner or sprinter on regular ground. When a skater is quickly pumping their back up and down and swinging their arms to and fro, you can clearly see the muscles at work and the effort required to gain momentum. That is the definition of laboriousness, not effortlessness.

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