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  1. #21

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    Jeter is an obvious cheater to me. I loathe the fact that athletes think that they can get away with it. UGH!

    And I had no clue that Crystal Cox was a cheater. I hate that athletes who otherwise run clean have to lose their medals, too.
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  2. #22
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    This is why I don't watch track anymore. I can't feel good about the results. Ditto cycling. Fast losing my patience with swimming. I still hang on to the fact that so much about swimming is technique and the timing of strokes.

    I think a first offense should result in a four year ban. A second offense? Lifetime ban.

  3. #23

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    I don't think swimming has been plagued with nearly the percentage of drug offenses as cycling, track & field, or weightlifting.

    I wish there was a more accurate list of what drugs actually provide and advantage, and should be banned - pseudoephidrine (?sp) was on the banned list for quite a while, and I don't think there was ever much evidence of its capabilities either to enhance performance or mask other banned substances. Pot is a ridiculous drug to have on the list.

    The other issue -- which I'm not very comfortable with -- is that as the ability to detect smaller and smaller concentrations of drugs gets better, the incidence of false positives is also going to rise. Maybe what we need is somewhat higher thresholds, but more frequent testing in the disciplines where abuse is rampant.

    Athletes also need to just quit with the supplements. Amazing how many athletes have been snagged by products that were not supposed to have included banned products but which secretly did. Or, the manufacturers need to do what Uncle Bob's Red Mill does: test every batch of grain -- in their case, to exclude gluten.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seregil View Post
    This is why I don't watch track anymore.
    Oh you should. If only to see people called Crystal Cox and Destinee Hooker.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    How people can come back from a drugs ban and run faster than before it is a neverending fascination in pure shamelessness.
    Asli Cakir was only 18 when she tested positive in 2004, so as a middle-distance runner, she was sure to improve during the next eight years. Apparently she has been in the IAAF's "intensive testing" list for these two years running up to the Olympics, so hopefully she has been tested many times.

    I still find it difficult to root for her as for any athlete with a history of drugs. But thanks to the two years of "intensive testing", chances are that she is currently clean and not robbing anyone.

    It's awful to point a finger at one country, but Turkey's athletics programme, between "buying" in East African runners (and changing their names to something vaguely Turkish sounding ) and chemical enhancement, just screams dodgy.
    Yes, it's a bit unfair to point a finger at a country from which only 4 athletes having tested positive in its whole history. Ideally there should have been NO cases, but 4 is hardly a world record.

    As for "buying" Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes for long distance, there is a Turkish manager who has found out a small number of unknown but promising young athletes from these countries. Almost all of them were out of the top 30 in their country. They are offered citizenship, good training conditions in Turkey and a good lifestyle, so it's the same story as with many other countries importing athletes, sometimes from former colonies. There is nothing dodgy about it.

    The most successful "import", Elvan Abeylegesse, was 17 when she moved to Turkey and her best result to that date was 9th in the junior category of the World Junior Cross-Country Championships. From then on she trained in Turkey and reached a much higher level. She's not a ready-made import like some Cuban athletes who defect to the west.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    The team are well covered since they can use ANY athlete already on the Olympic roster. Since Allyson Felix is guaranteed a slot, Dunn was never going to run the final anyway. Add to that Lashinda Demus, the world 400m champ, Jeneba Tarmoh who has run the 4x4 at NCAA level a gazillion times and you have the heats and finals well covered.


    I have so much to say when it comes to track and field .....need to get some time to write.


    Since this is essentially a drugs thread.
    1) Apparently back dated test of Athens' Olympics samples have only NOW revealed drugs cheats to be named and stripped after London. We know Crystal Cox is one of them, this means Sanya, Allison, Henderson, Robinson and HENNEGAN may lose their 4x4 gold since cox ran in the heat. Feel sorry for Hennegan who just lost a court battle to keep her 4x4 Gold from Sydney because of Marion Jones. Hennegan will lose both of her Gold medals because of her drug fueled team mates. ...I am praying Nesterenko is one of the others!
    I have a wish list for the olympics. It's not a wish for gold. But a wish that the obvious drug cheats are caught out. Somehow. Said list includes
    Vania Stambolova
    Carmelita Jeter
    Cakir
    Yanit Nevin
    Selsouli
    Kaniskina
    Kellie Wells


    I'm quite happy with the men's side of things, aside from the Russian Walkers...but you can't have it everyway.
    US did not lose its 2000 Olympics gold even though Marion Jones helped win the gold medal. US won the case at the CAS where marion teammates were allowed to keep the gold medal on a technicality.:roll eyes:. US men's team have lost their gold medal for doping for 4X400 meters event.


    As for 2004, Cox admitted doping in 2010 and as now of yet no decision has been made on stripping US of the medal, that is 2 years have passed. US is likely to lose Tyler Hamilton's gold medal in cycling as well. Tyler have admitted doping during that period as well. Interestingly Tyler initially had failed dope test and A sample at the games tested positive, but due to WADA/IOC messed up with the storage of his B sample, he was allowed to keep the gold medal. Tyler then went on to failed dope test a month later and was suspended, but was allowed to keep the gold medal.

    I was going through the list of athlete you want to fail the dope test in London
    Vania Stambolova : failed dope test before
    Carmelita Jeter : suspicion
    Cakir : doping
    Yanit Nevin : ???
    Selsouli : doping
    Kaniskina : ???
    Kellie Wells ???

    Nevin, Kaniskina and Wells are interesting, since they have never failed a drug test, or in spot light for suspicion of doping.

    If it is suspicion of doping then I will add the name of Maria Abakumova (skary masha is more than likely doping, and I suspect everyone under her coach, this includes Iordan and Tarabin)
    Last edited by Domshabfan; 07-18-2012 at 01:49 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Asli Cakir was only 18 when she tested positive in 2004, so as a middle-distance runner, she was sure to improve during the next eight years. Apparently she has been in the IAAF's "intensive testing" list for these two years running up to the Olympics, so hopefully she has been tested many times.

    I still find it difficult to root for her as for any athlete with a history of drugs. But thanks to the two years of "intensive testing", chances are that she is currently clean and not robbing anyone.
    Chances and experience with other doping offenders would suggest otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Yes, it's a bit unfair to point a finger at a country from which only 4 athletes having tested positive in its whole history. Ideally there should have been NO cases, but 4 is hardly a world record.
    It's not, but for a country like Turkey with a relatively short history/tradition of success in the sport of athletics four cases start alarm bells ringing. It suggests a tip of the iceberg scenario and a tolerance of a culture of cheating.

    And testing positive or not means very little. After all, Marion Jones never tested positive once in her career, but was still a doper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    As for "buying" Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes for long distance, there is a Turkish manager who has found out a small number of unknown but promising young athletes from these countries. Almost all of them were out of the top 30 in their country. They are offered citizenship, good training conditions in Turkey and a good lifestyle, so it's the same story as with many other countries importing athletes, sometimes from former colonies. There is nothing dodgy about it.
    I have to disagree. Turkey isn't the only nation that does it. The likes of Azerbaijan, Qatar and Bahrain do it as well. It is one thing for an individual athlete who for whatever reason (university studies, marriage, work, etc) finds themselves in another country and then decides they want to pursue citizenship and represent their adopted country. But to have an active recruitment policy where athletes with absolutely no connection to a country are trained and hired is ethically and morally unsound, in my opinion.

    Let's put it this way. I certainly have a lot more respect for the way the Turkish figure skating federation has chosen to develop athletes than I do the way the Turkish athletics federation does.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    I can understand that point of view, but I think people should be allowed a second chance. Four years would at least take them out of one Olympics.
    Two, really (the current and the next one, or do you just mean the current one?). I think four years if it's found out before the event, and someone can take their place, life if it's after - especially if they rob someone else of a medal ceremony.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    It's not, but for a country like Turkey with a relatively short history/tradition of success in the sport of athletics four cases start alarm bells ringing. It suggests a tip of the iceberg scenario and a tolerance of a culture of cheating.
    It may also suggest that due to the lack of high-level experience, Turkish coaches are not yet as proficient as coaches from the USA or Russia in drugging their athletes without being caught.

    And testing positive or not means very little. After all, Marion Jones never tested positive once in her career, but was still a doper.
    So should we assume all athletes are doped, even if they test negative?

    Let's put it this way. I certainly have a lot more respect for the way the Turkish figure skating federation has chosen to develop athletes than I do the way the Turkish athletics federation does.
    The Turkish Athletics Federation does have a development program for home-born athletes, a much wider and better program than for figure skating. It is only in the middle and long-distance running that they "import" East African athletes.

    33 track-and-field athletes have qualified for the London olympics (25 of them are women ). If I'm not mistaken only 3 out of 33 are East African and one is South African-born. The others are home-bred, so to say.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    So should we assume all athletes are doped, even if they test negative?
    Sadly, I think in most sports we're past the point of just accepting performances without questioning them. For me there is always a degree of confidence that I place on different athletes and some of the factors I apply are probably unfair -like nationality or physical appearance. I'd like it to be different, but in some cases I just can't help but wonder when another Ukranian sprinter with thighs that Kenteris would've envied pops up.

    33 track-and-field athletes have qualified for the London olympics (25 of them are women ). If I'm not mistaken only 3 out of 33 are East African and one is South African-born. The others are home-bred, so to say.
    You seem to take the female to male ratio as a good sign. For me, it rings some alarm bells.

  11. #31
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    Pischalnikova, Lyssenko and Abakhumova are in the ´dope radar´ for me also, and would like to get caught

    Pischalnikova throwing 70 meters recently and with her suspension before, once a cheater always a cheater IMO

  12. #32

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    Jeter went from a 11.5 athlete in 06

    To 11'01 in 07 looking like this......
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...er_Osaka07.jpg


    To 10.65 (second fastest ever) looking like this
    http://www.dreamstime.com/carmelita-...mb15159652.jpg

    In a sport where improving by a .1 of a second can take years, she is a shamelss druggie fck and giving two fingers to fans, clean athletes and the drug testers everytime she wins a race.

  13. #33
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    wow, the difference in Pharmelita is just incredible!

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    So should we assume all athletes are doped, even if they test negative?



    .
    I really enjoyed reading the exchange between yourself and allezfred.

    In relation to the above question, I've been watching this sport so long, patterns emerge and as sophisticated as designer drugs may be, and as weak as the testing programme may be, I genuinely don't think the sport is "riddled". On the contrary, cheaters stick out like sore thumbs.

    I honestly think it's very simple, a combination of any of the following ping my radar
    -> Dramatic improvements: Most top athletes have consistent and small progressions beginning from with a junior career into their senior years. Take the women's 100m: When you go from 11.4 to 11.2 to 11.0 to 10.9 (Debbie Ferguson McKenzie) over the course of 5/6 years, that's a natural progression. 11.6 to 11.0 to 10.6 in your mid twenties over 3 years, is not a NATURAL progression (Jeter)

    -> Physical changes: Particularly noticable in women, steroids often lead to acne, a change in voice tone, more prominent features, larger nose, prominent jaw affecting teeth, requiring braces. There is no reason why you should be a pretty female one year and a muscular, acne ridden, deep voiced hulk the next. (Flo Jo, Jeter, Kellie White)

    -> Association: Don't train under a coach who has a proven record of drugging his athletes, nor alongside athletes who have been banned. It shows that you condone their methods which inturn has druggie implications.

    -> Avoidance: It is un natural not to WANT to earn a living on the circuit (where there are frequent drug testers) in favour of staying at home in your Belarussian hideaway or whereever it may be. To turn up at a major championships having run no major races is telling. To do so and WIN, is insulting.

    When you ping all 4 together

    With this in mind, I think track has cleaned itself up quite well. There's still along way to go, but here's hoping fairness will prevail in London!
    Last edited by poths; 07-18-2012 at 07:44 PM.

  15. #35
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    Nevermind

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Nevin, Kaniskina and Wells are interesting, since they have never failed a drug test, or in spot light for suspicion of doping.
    Nevin Yanit has never failed a drug test, but many people in Turkey are suspicious of her Arnold Schwarzeneger looks. Personally, I can't trust a female sprinter with that body type.

    The Turkish Olympic Committee seems to agree. They sent officials to the team camp about five weeks ago to test Yanit and the head coach of the national team did not allow her to give a sample, as told here. He made quite a scene too.

    Granted, apparently the Turkish National Olympic Committee has no right to test an athlete. Nevertheless, why should they be refused if they want to eliminate suspicions just before the Olympics? Noone wants a scandal during the olympics. Such a scandal taints all other clean athletes as well.

    As a result, Nevin Yanit is finished for me and I'm looking forward to the rest.

    ETA: poths, I've seen your above post after posting this. ITA with your indicators.

    One thing that might help reduce doping is to make it a criminal offense as in France IMO. It is, after all, a way of cheating other people out of money. I remember how several big names had chosen not to come to the 2003 IAAF Worlds in Paris and even among those present, many young names had emerged - so maybe the big names were uncharacteristically clean. At the time, the local press had commented that this could have been because a positive test would have sent these athletes to prison in France.
    Last edited by Asli; 07-18-2012 at 07:58 PM.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mazzy View Post
    You seem to take the female to male ratio as a good sign. For me, it rings some alarm bells.
    The Turkish women's basketball and voleyball teams have qualified for the Olympics while the mens teams have not. Does this ring alarm bells too? To me this is a sign of two things:

    1. Turkish women are

    2. Every male in the country who is moderately good at running, jumping or playing with a ball plays football (soccer). This is because we are a football-crazy country and they would earn a better living by playing in a third division football team than being in the national team in most other sports.

  18. #38
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    OMG, Carmelita Jeter doesn't look like the same person.
    I think I will have a snack and take a nap before I eat and go to sleep.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    The Turkish women's basketball and voleyball teams have qualified for the Olympics while the mens teams have not. Does this ring alarm bells too? To me this is a sign of two things:

    1. Turkish women are

    2. Every male in the country who is moderately good at running, jumping or playing with a ball plays football (soccer). This is because we are a football-crazy country and they would earn a better living by playing in a third division football team than being in the national team in most other sports.
    A sample of two is not enough to draw any conclusions on
    Turkish women being is true independently of any athletics result so no conclusion there. The second part of your argument could be brought up for just about every country out there. In Europe it's football, in the US gridiron & basketball. Thus things should be evening out and I see no reason why Turkish women should have a comparative advantage over their men. Now it is very well possible that somehow athletics turned out to be a "girls sport" in Turkey with 3:1 participation ratios at lower levels if that is the case, then there are good reasons for the discrepancy.

  20. #40

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    I don't understand your reasoning. Do you mean that the coaches dope the women but not the men? Because a doped male athlete has as much advantage over other men as a doped woman has over other women.

    I am sure you would not have been suprised if our team comprised of 8 women and 25 men, but the contrary is fishy.

    Anyway, I'm very sorry for the off topic. Maybe some posters are aware of the political situation here and can appreciate how important it is, at such a time, for the women's teams to be the ones who make us proud at the olympics.

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