Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies SEMI-FINAL

[Cherub721]

You could make up all kinds of scenarios. You could discount Kwan's 94 because she also competed at junior worlds that year, but then she doesn't medal until two years after winning juniors, whereas Kim won a medal the season after winning juniors. Etc etc.

But it's probably easier to just go with the actual results. It probably does penalize Kwan a bit for being talented enough to make senior worlds that young, while she was not ready to medal yet, but then others were penalized for things outside of their control , like Mao, who probably indeed would have medalled in 2006 but we have to go with facts which is that she did not. And on the flip side, one could argue that the experience of skating in senior worlds for two years without pressure does give Kwan some kind of advantage that Mao and Kim did not have because they had to wait until they were eligible.

[berthesghost]

Irina got her medals later in her career and it's actually very admirable that she won her second world title at the age of 26. She was dominating ladies figure skating while being 25, 26 and 27. This is much harder to do when you're that old than when you're still in your teens like Kim did. We will see the level of Yu-Na's skating now when she's older. It's not so sure she'll be as good as she was in the past when she won her titles.

ITA. Irina has admitted to seriously contemplating quitting in 99. Perhaps Kim could also find that amazing 2nd wind, but it's even more unlikely than Irina's unlikely but amazing comeback, because of what I'll call "the Lipinski factor". Just as it's harder to defend than challenge, it harder to stay competitive when you've already won the sport's top prizes. A 2nd OGM for Kim in Sochi would be IMHO.

You could make up all kinds of scenarios.

You're probably right. Despite my best efforts to make the apples and oranges both look like pears, I've probably just made lemonade.

[RunnersHigh]

If Kim was so good, she should've been freakin able to be more than 1 time WC. everyone knows Kim has harder, better jumps, but Kwan was able take what she had and become 5 time WC and two time OM.

IMHO, World Championships and Yuna were strangers, just like Olympics and Kwan.

• 2007: 1st in SP, 4th in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
• 2008: 5th in SP, 1st in FS, 3rd in Total (With Back injury)
• 2009: 1st in SP, 1st in FS, 1st in Total (Injury Free)
• 2010: 7th in SP, 1st in FS, 2nd in Total (Right after Olympics)
• 2011: 1st in SP, 2nd in FS, 2nd in Total (First competition after 2010 Worlds)

Nevertheless, she went some! I mean she won SP, FS or both in any case. Back to the topic, it's *really* hard for me to vote. I have no criteria for comparing those champions and I don't care who wins.

[Macassar88]

I hope Kim wins this

[judgejudy27]

Kim's biggest problem is she won only 1 of 5 Worlds even though she could have easily won all 5. She didnt even need to skate cleanly to win any of them. She would have won in 2007 and 2008 with just one major mistake, and in 2010 and 2011 with just several mistakes over the two programs rather than the huge number she made. Had she won all 5 of those as she should have managed, or even 3 or 4 of the 5 she would rightfully be regarded as the best skater ever today but she didnt and she isnt. Allowing a mediocre skater like Miki Ando to have more World titles than her in the same era is an embarassment for a skater of her caliber, I am sure even she secretly feels the same way. That is also why she will lose this game when it enters the last round.

At her best she would definitely beat Kwan in a head to head competition, but Kwan is a much stronger competitor.

[flipforsynchro]

Kim's biggest problem is she won only 1 of 5 Worlds even though she could have easily won all 5. She didnt even need to skate cleanly to win any of them. She would have won in 2007 and 2008 with just one major mistake, and in 2010 and 2011 with just several mistakes over the two programs rather than the huge number she made. Had she won all 5 of those as she should have managed, or even 3 or 4 of the 5 she would rightfully be regarded as the best skater ever today but she didnt and she isnt. Allowing a mediocre skater like Miki Ando to have more World titles than her in the same era is an embarassment for a skater of her caliber, I am sure even she secretly feels the same way. That is also why she will lose this game when it enters the last round.

At her best she would definitely beat Kwan in a head to head competition, but Kwan is a much stronger competitor.

Someday, I will learn how to explain things like you...

[Triple Butz]

At her best she would definitely beat Kwan in a head to head competition, but Kwan is a much stronger competitor.

That sums it up pretty nicely. Kim's Olympic performances are probably the best ever by any woman (even though her LP leaves a lot to be desired artistically IMO). I can't think of anyone who could defeat those two programs, especially under that system. But, she only managed that once in her career. If she and Kwan had gone head to head in their primes, I suspect many titles would have been traded and Kwan would have come out on top slightly more often because of her consistency. A clean Kwan was more than capable of taking many of the world titles that Kim missed out on. The showdown between them in the next round should be very interesting.



ETA: I feel bad voting Irina out, first time I've voted for her, but third place in this field is well-deserved and respectable. She was a remarkable skater and competitor who I miss even though I wasn't a fan.

[berthesghost]

Shrug. I can see how Kim coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 5 time WC, but then I can also see how Kwan coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 2 time ogm and at least 8 time WC. 97, 99 and 02 and possibly even 04, were all there ripe for the pickin and she could have had them too had she not faltered due to injury, illness, fatigue, poor judgement in firing famous coach, etc... Pretty much all the same things that kept Kim from winning too.

[Triple Butz]

Shrug. I can see how Kim coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 5 time WC, but then I can also see how Kwan coulda/shoulda/woulda been a 2 time ogm and at least 8 time WC. 97, 99 and 02 and possibly even 04, were all there ripe for the pickin and she could have had them too had she not faltered due to injury, illness, fatigue, poor judgement in firing famous coach, etc... Pretty much all the same things that kept Kim from winning too.

But despite that, Kwan persevered and still came out with more medals and titles. I can't think of any other woman in the world who could land at LEAST 6 triples in the final freeskate at worlds for 10 years in a row (94-2003). Kim didn't even do that once.

[berthesghost]

But despite that, Kwan persevered and still came out with more medals and titles. I can't think of any other woman in the world who could land at LEAST 6 triples in the final freeskate at worlds for 10 years in a row (94-2003). Kim didn't even do that once.

Techinally I find it a stand off... Kwan laid down more clean 7 triple attempted LPs, but Kim had more impressive jumps and combos. What really surges Kwan ahead IMO is the 2nd mark. No other woman on the list reached that level of presentation IMO. Kim is almost as icy and distant as shiz.

[bartek]

Techinally I find it a stand off... Kwan laid down more clean 7 triple attempted LPs, but Kim had more impressive jumps and combos. What really surges Kwan ahead IMO is the 2nd mark. No other woman on the list reached that level of presentation IMO. Kim is almost as icy and distant as shiz.

The presentation level is really a subjective thing. I think that many, even on this board, would argue with your statement saying that e.g. Lu Chen reached even higher level of presentation. But for example me, I don't find anything special about Lu Chen's presentation. On the other hand, I reckon that the woman who reached the highest level of presentation is definitely Sasha Cohen. I agree that Yu-Na tends to be icy and distant but I'm sure many consider her to be the best artist ever on the ice...

I love Slutskaya's power and energy and most people on this forum don't like this type of skating. It's all subjective...

[judgejudy27]

The presentation level is really a subjective thing. I think that many, even on this board, would argue with your statement saying that e.g. Lu Chen reached even higher level of presentation. But for example me, I don't find anything special about Lu Chen's presentation. On the other hand, I reckon that the woman who reached the highest level of presentation is definitely Sasha Cohen. I agree that Yu-Na tends to be icy and distant but I'm sure many consider her to be the best artist ever on the ice...

I love Slutskaya's power and energy and most people on this forum don't like this type of skating. It's all subjective...

Presentation is definitely subjective. The judges seemed to think Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul were oh so artistic, and that was their biggest edge on the other top skaters at the time, but for me they were I thought Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, and even Josee Chouinard had much better LPs presentation wise that year, when skated well, but definitely not the judges.

I also didnt find Kristi Yamaguchi as an amateur any better artistically than Midori Ito, but the judges felt so strongly, so much so Ito needed to hit all her triple axels and everything else in her arsenal to hope to win.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

And when having actual transitions in her program, doing more difficult footwork and spins, skating faster, and having at least equally good skating skills. The only thing Kwan has skating-wise over Kim is the spiral sequence, IMO.

Of course Kim was developing her skills while/after Kwan was dominating figure skating with Slute not far behind.

[sk8ingcoach]

KIM SHOULD WIN

[flipforsynchro]

KIM SHOULD WIN

No

[miki88]

Michelle should definitely win this in the end. There is no question she is the best overall skater and competitor. One can argue about all the titles Kim should have won, but the number of times she actually skated two clean programs back to back is pretty few. Also, Michelle is the better artist and has far more memorable programs.

[Macassar88]

The presentation level is really a subjective thing. I think that many, even on this board, would argue with your statement saying that e.g. Lu Chen reached even higher level of presentation. But for example me, I don't find anything special about Lu Chen's presentation. On the other hand, I reckon that the woman who reached the highest level of presentation is definitely Sasha Cohen. I agree that Yu-Na tends to be icy and distant but I'm sure many consider her to be the best artist ever on the ice...

I love Slutskaya's power and energy and most people on this forum don't like this type of skating. It's all subjective...

I agree with the part about presentation being very subjective.
I for one found Michelle to be kind of distant but find Yu-Na, Chen and Sasha to be very engaging. I also love Slute's amazingly high energy levels and charisma entertaining.
Presentation is all about subjectivity which is why this sort of poll is fun. It gets people to explain why they think certain things are the case.

For me, I find Sasha's presentation particularly amazing because of the expression in her arms. Also, her amazing flexibility and extension combined with the way that these stretches came with the music (in contrast to Lipnitskaya who has arguably more flexibility but doesn't captivate me) always reeled me in. But this isn't really about Sasha (or Chen who I wish was still in), so back on topic.

I always loved Yuna's use of her whole body (even though her spirals were fug) throughout her programs. I loved her step sequences and never felt like they were overly long even though they probably were just because every movement hit a beat and drew me in more. I know that people criticize her layback, but it was the best out of the three remaining because of its amazing speed and centering as well as her effortless transition between positions.
Also, I felt like her jumps upped her presentation in that they were so effortless and fluid. They were always timed beautifully with the music and had amazing technique.

[berthesghost]

I think people delude themselves into thinking they aren't being completely subjective about the technical mark as well.

[Alex Forrest]

Presentation is definitely subjective. The judges seemed to think Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul were oh so artistic, and that was their biggest edge on the other top skaters at the time, but for me they were I thought Lu Chen, Yuka Sato, and even Josee Chouinard had much better LPs presentation wise that year, when skated well, but definitely not the judges.

I also didnt find Kristi Yamaguchi as an amateur any better artistically than Midori Ito, but the judges felt so strongly, so much so Ito needed to hit all her triple axels and everything else in her arsenal to hope to win.

I agree. God, I remember way back in 1994 on the first internet skating discussion groups, I couldn't understand how Nancy was considered 'artistic'. Her Jane Fonda jazzercise programs were IMO unartistic, and it appeared she had no musicality, only a few set moves (Nancy spiral, and, er, what else?), a pretty face and a $15000 dress and instantly she was artistic. Baiul I could understand because her musicality and ability to interpret all types of genres was apparent. I also found Chen, Sato, and Chouinard much more appealing than Kerrigan and with better presentation.

As for Kristi v Ito, it all came down to body form. Ito had those bowed legs that just could never compete in spirals, spins, etc from an aesthetic side. I did like may of Ito's programs and always felt like she was a "5.8" skater and if she really hit, a "5.9". Kristi had better lines and slightly more musicality so I'd have her a tenth higher on the second mark. In a way Ito/Yama was like Slute/Kwan.

[flipforsynchro]

Kim's spiral isn't too bad seen not on TV. I saw it on a fan cam and it was passable. It just looks horrific on TV.