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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    What we have is a field that can't definitively challenge Kostner like Asada of old, Ando, and Kim did. If the field that skates can't bring it, the gold medal goes to the person who brings the most.
    I am glad the stars aligned for Kostner this past season. The lack of a 3lutz is really her only weakness, which she makes up with a 3toe3toe, 2axel3toe, superb jump quality and skating quality. The overall field might be quite average at 2012 Worlds but IMO Kostner certainly brought a champion-calibre performance.

    Just look back at 2011 Worlds. Both Ando and Kim landed 2 3lutzes in the free skate. Yet, I would still have what Kostner did at 2012 Worlds ahead anyway.

    Hopefully Suzuki and Wagner will get respect from the judges this year, if they skate well.
    This.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    There were three other World Champions from 2007-2011: Mao Asada (2), Miki Ando (2), and YuNa Kim (1). Of the remaining 10 medals won at Worlds between 2007-2010, all but three were won by the same three skaters; the other three were won by Laura Lepisto, Joannie Rochette, and Kostner. Lepisto was blasted for having lesser technical content than Kostner.
    Lepisto is the only other skater from those five Worlds to win a medal of any kind--including the small medals, which were also won by Meissner, Nakano, Nagasu, and Makarova--to have completed just two triple jumps more difficult than the salchow over both phases. I don't want to make too much of it (), especially when there's some mitigation in terms of combination jumping (to say nothing of other difficult elements). Still, that particular lack, combined with the doubling of the planned 3r out of steps makes me more sympathetic to complaints from those who place a heavy emphasis on apparent jump difficulty than I otherwise would be, even as I disagree with this "tendency" about Lepisto's bronze in 2010 and Kostner's title in 2012, both of which I'm fine with.

    Re: Suzuki's PCS, particularly vis-à-vis Leonova's: No argument here!
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    True. I just conceded one respect in which her win did recall those days. Even with the advent of stricter edge and rotation calls, every one of Kostner's COP predecessors managed to win the World title with more than two triples of greater difficulty than the salchow over both phases. So did most of the skaters to win silver and bronze medals in the same system.
    The trouble with that, though, is that the three previous world champions, all have a triple they don't atttempt attempt above the salchow Kim (loop), Ando (flip), Asada (lutz, and salchow at times in her career). Kim simply doesn't need it with the strong 3/3s she does, Asada would never want to repeat her two weakest triples which happen to be the easiest, and Ando (and Kim) both repeat the toe-loop in addition to one of the harder triples. Neither Ando nor Asada attempt 3/3s since they prefer to use loops on the back half and they don't seem to get ratified.

    So when I look at all Carolina's predecessors, Kim is the only one, I think that stands out technically on the jumps by a large majority, but when I look at Asada and Ando, I see skaters who struggle with one or more triples themselves and who don't attempt 3/3s, and Kostner who equally struggles with one of the harder triples but does do a 3/3 (albeit two toe-loops) which, for me, evens the score on the harder repeated triple by Ando and Asada. If Asada hits the 3A then I guess she has more wiggle room, however, she hasn't really had much success with it in the past season, so for me they're all pretty much in the same melting pot and I don't get why Kostner is more deserving of criticisms on the difficulty of her jumps than the rest of them (with the notable exception of Kim).

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    The trouble with that, though, is that the three previous world champions, all have a triple they don't atttempt attempt above the salchow Kim (loop), Ando (flip), Asada (lutz, and salchow at times in her career). Kim simply doesn't need it with the strong 3/3s she does, Asada would never want to repeat her two weakest triples which happen to be the easiest, and Ando (and Kim) both repeat the toe-loop in addition to one of the harder triples. Neither Ando nor Asada attempt 3/3s since they prefer to use loops on the back half and they don't seem to get ratified.
    This is all true. I had in mind only the pairs of programs that won each skater their respective World titles; if Kostner's 3t3t offsets just one of a predecessor's harder triples, then Ando in 2007 and Asada in 2008 and 2010 still come out ahead. Even so, I must admit that the example of 2011 Worlds doesn't much help my argument, though the top two both managed to land a triple in each of the SP jumping passes that required it, however imperfectly in Kim's case.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    This is all true. I had in mind only the pairs of programs that won each skater their respective World titles; if Kostner's 3t3t offsets just one of a predecessor's harder triples, then Ando in 2007 and Asada in 2008 and 2010 still come out ahead. Even so, I must admit that the example of 2011 Worlds doesn't much help my argument, though the top two both managed to land a triple in each of the SP jumping passes that required it, however imperfectly in Kim's case.
    True enough. At this stage, we'll see if Kim and Ando come back and are as strong as they previously were (and hoping Ando repeats the form of 2007 rather than 2011), as for Asada, I hate to say it but I think she's peaked and is on the way down, I don't think she'll clean up the lutz at this stage (and honestly I don't think it's worth it now), and I suspect the triple axel may be a struggle from here on in.

    As for Kostner, I saw her land a few triple lutzes in practice at Europeans and she rotated but stepped out of one in the 6 minute warm up prior to the LP there too so I think her plan is to put the Lutz back in at some point (perhaps not in the SP though).

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