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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    I'm not sure any of her LPs would merit a 6.0 on artisitc side due to lack of the five normal triples and the flutz. Extremely technically difficult but not enough.
    well the flutz would not even have been considered a flutz in the old system it's much later the edge rules got stricter, and in her Liebestraum she had all the tripples included that should have given her 6.0 on the tech and artistic side![/QUOTE]

    That really isn't true. Lack of edge was penalised under the 6.0 system.

  2. #22
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    When I think 6.0 I think Yuna FD in 2010 Olys. It was probably the most technically clean women's OGM ever.

  3. #23
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    That really isn't true. Lack of edge was penalised under the 6.0 system.[/QUOTE]


    even if it was it wasn't judged as strictly as under COP, cause asada never got any edge call on the lutz under the old system when she was competing as junior. I think it's because that when the edge is taken off from an outside edge, and the skater then slightly switches to an inside edge, it was still considered a clean lutz, while under the new system it's considered a flutz if it's not from a completely outside edge!

    if one got an edge call under the old system it was pretty much because it was a VERY visible wrong edge! so they may have penalised lack of edge under the 6.0 system but not in the same strict way they are doing now!
    Last edited by Amy03; 07-12-2012 at 03:27 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    That really isn't true. Lack of edge was penalised under the 6.0 system.

    even if it was it wasn't judged as strictly as under COP, cause asada never got any edge call on the lutz under the old system when she was competing as junior. I think it's because that when the edge is taken off from an outside edge, and the skater then slightly switches to an inside edge, it was still considered a clean lutz, while under the new system it's considered a flutz if it's not from a completely outside edge!

    if one got an edge call under the old system it was pretty much because it was a VERY visible wrong edge! so they may have penalised lack of edge under the 6.0 system but not in the same strict way they are doing now![/QUOTE]

    I agree that the judges didn't seem to penalise for flutzing or lipping under the old suystem even if they were supposed to do so. They didn't care for Sarah Hughes' severe underrotations at all even if there was a rule saying that they should have taken 0.1 from the base mark.

    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.

  5. #25
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    I don't think the judges took off 0.1 because there was never any accountability. IJS has so many areas of scores and deductions, you can see where the skater messed up and if the judges took off where they were supposed to. 6.0 was pretty vague and subject to more opinion. You can only look at the programs now after the fact and be critical, which isn't that fair. I don't hold the 6.0 skaters responsible for edge calls because they never had the opportunity to fix it. And the judges were never told to take off for it. No, it wasn't fair, but that's the system everyone played by.

  6. #26
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    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.[/QUOTE]


    no I wouldn't call Mao's lutz as a "very visible wrong edge" since she did take of from an outside edge but before rotating then Slightly switched to an inside edge, and Mao has gotten credit for a clean lutz under tarasova, which shows that her lutz was borderline outside, this is why she sometimes managed to get full credit for it and sometimes didn't.

  7. #27

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    There was a deduction for wrong-edge takeoff written into the short-program deduction sheet under 6.0

    In that sense the judges were instructed to deduct for it -- on lutzes. I don't think anyone paid much attention to wrong edges on flips.

    I don't know that there were ever any written-down instructions beyond the basic fact that it was a mandatory deduction. I imagined some referees sometimes mentioned it in pre-competition meetings and others didn't, that some judges were sticklers for correct lutz takeoffs and others weren't.

    In any case, the skaters never got any specific written feedback about where they lost points in competition. They could see if their short program Required Elements scores were lower than the Presentation scores, but if they wanted to know what deductions the judges had taken they would have needed to ask each judge separately . . . or ask one and guess that others saw the same things.
    Last edited by gkelly; 07-12-2012 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    even if it was it wasn't judged as strictly as under COP, cause asada never got any edge call on the lutz under the old system when she was competing as junior. I think it's because that when the edge is taken off from an outside edge, and the skater then slightly switches to an inside edge, it was still considered a clean lutz, while under the new system it's considered a flutz if it's not from a completely outside edge!

    if one got an edge call under the old system it was pretty much because it was a VERY visible wrong edge! so they may have penalised lack of edge under the 6.0 system but not in the same strict way they are doing now!
    I agree that the judges didn't seem to penalise for flutzing or lipping under the old suystem even if they were supposed to do so. They didn't care for Sarah Hughes' severe underrotations at all even if there was a rule saying that they should have taken 0.1 from the base mark.

    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.[/QUOTE]

    Sarah definitely got penalized for her jumping flaws (URs and flutzes). This explains why her technical merit score ranges at international competitions are usually 5.4-5.6, even though she does a 3l-2r. Even at 2001 Worlds, where she landed 7 triples including a 3s-3r, she still got a 5.3 for technical merit. At the 2002 Olympics, she got no higher than 5.8 for technical merit.

    Of course, under CoP, she would be penalized much more heavily than under 6.0, but the judges definitely lowered her base mark.

  9. #29
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    I think a 6.0 for presentation should be reserved only for programs that would receive a 5.9 if skated well, but in this case the particular performance went above and beyond.

    This is why I don't, for example, think Slutskaya's 2005 LP merited a 6.0 for either mark. Some of her spins, IMO, were sloppy, such as her COE scratch spin. The choreography itself was sloppy as well, though it was an emotional and memorable program. I'd maybe give her a 5.9 for both marks, but not a 6.0. Her best performance ever was really at the 2000-01 GPF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SXO6s3MCDw. She got a 6.0 for technical merit here, and deservedly so.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    By the way, "VERY visible wrong edge" is exactly what Mao used to have for many years on her lutz. Under Tarasova she had a few times she took off from flat but now she came back to switching to the inside edge.

    no I wouldn't call Mao's lutz as a "very visible wrong edge" since she did take of from an outside edge but before rotating then Slightly switched to an inside edge, and Mao has gotten credit for a clean lutz under tarasova, which shows that her lutz was borderline outside, this is why she sometimes managed to get full credit for it and sometimes didn't.[/QUOTE]

    Are you insane? Mao's entrance looked exactly the same on both lutz and flip for years, going into deep outside edge and then switching to deep inside edge before the take off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKd2t0qvNdU it's clearly flutz

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl4gyYLhQhQ&t=4m16s now, this is her triple flip and listen to what British Eurosport guys say. Then you have the slow-motion of the flutz, exactly the same way she rolls back to the deep inside edge.

    You're describing it as if it wasn't that much of a problem. Sometimes she did it properly, sometimes not. That's wrong. You're a biased uber. Mao got credit for clean triple lutz only once or twice at best and it was under Tarasova. Bedore that, she had always terrible entrance to the lutz, terrible technique and clearly wrong edge though she had wonderful height and flow out of this jump.

    Recently, under Sato, her technique has improved significantly, however she still flutzes.

  11. #31
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    Seriously folks, the quote tool really isn't rocket science.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    no I wouldn't call Mao's lutz as a "very visible wrong edge" since she did take of from an outside edge but before rotating then Slightly switched to an inside edge, and Mao has gotten credit for a clean lutz under tarasova, which shows that her lutz was borderline outside, this is why she sometimes managed to get full credit for it and sometimes didn't.
    Are you insane? Mao's entrance looked exactly the same on both lutz and flip for years, going into deep outside edge and then switching to deep inside edge before the take off.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKd2t0qvNdU it's clearly flutz

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl4gyYLhQhQ&t=4m16s now, this is her triple flip and listen to what British Eurosport guys say. Then you have the slow-motion of the flutz, exactly the same way she rolls back to the deep inside edge.

    You're describing it as if it wasn't that much of a problem. Sometimes she did it properly, sometimes not. That's wrong. You're a biased uber. Mao got credit for clean triple lutz only once or twice at best and it was under Tarasova. Bedore that, she had always terrible entrance to the lutz, terrible technique and clearly wrong edge though she had wonderful height and flow out of this jump.

    Recently, under Sato, her technique has improved significantly, however she still flutzes.
    [/QUOTE]

    you know you have just repeated what i have said from the beginning, and the commentator also said the same, Mao takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating (on the lutz).. and yes I did say she sometimes got full credit for her lutz and sometimes didn't, because that's a fact, that really she managed to get full credit for the lutz under tarasova !

    but you claiming that the entrance to her lutz was horrible is nonsense cause she did take of from the right edge, though she sometimes switched to an inside edge before rotating, but it was still beautifully done, when it comes to entrance, air positioning, and height, flow, so i wouldn't call the technique on the lutz as horrible... and yes i may describe it as a no big deal that Mao got an edge on the lutz, cause the deduction on the lutz is still minor when you look at her overall jump content, and it's value...

    but i agree that sato's work with Mao has improved Mao's technique, and i think it's only a matter of time before she get's used to doing the lutz with the right edge!


    (and another thing i don't mind having a discussion, with someone i mostly disagree with, as long as it's in a proper way but the moment you begin to be rude the discussion is for me over, so i hope that if we in the future have something to discuss it will be in the right way)
    Last edited by Amy03; 07-13-2012 at 12:30 PM.

  13. #33
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    Wink

    Savchenko and Szolkowy in 2011 worlds

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Savchenko and Szolkowy in 2011 worlds
    This!

    Perfection....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esJg7iOwvr4

  15. #35
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    you know you have just repeated what i have said from the beginning, and the commentator also said the same, Mao takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating (on the lutz).. and yes I did say she sometimes got full credit for her lutz and sometimes didn't, because that's a fact, that really she managed to get full credit for the lutz under tarasova !

    but you claiming that the entrance to her lutz was horrible is nonsense cause she did take of from the right edge, though she sometimes switched to an inside edge before rotating, but it was still beautifully done, when it comes to entrance, air positioning, and height, flow, so i wouldn't call the technique on the lutz as horrible... and yes i may describe it as a no big deal that Mao got an edge on the lutz, cause the deduction on the lutz is still minor when you look at her overall jump content, and it's value...

    but i agree that sato's work with Mao has improved Mao's technique, and i think it's only a matter of time before she get's used to doing the lutz with the right edge!


    (and another thing i don't mind having a discussion, with someone i mostly disagree with, as long as it's in a proper way but the moment you begin to be rude the discussion is for me over, so i hope that if we in the future have something to discuss it will be in the right way)[/QUOTE]

    The argument with you is totally pointless. Even when I gave the links showing that Mao really takes off her lutz from DEEP inside edge you're still claiming that she "takes off from an outside but switches to an inside edge before rotating". That's a nonsense! If she switches to an inside edge before rotating that exactly means that she TAKES OFF from that edge .

    Out of all triple lutzes she attempted in her career only once did she get credit for landing it cleanly. That is a big deal. The number of attempted lutzes done with wrong edge simply outnumbers clean lutzes by a gigantic margin. Get over it! Mao has terrible flutz.

    And the etrance to her lutz is horrible indeed. The whole jump does have some good qualities but the technique on the entry is horrible. Ugly mule kick and severely deep inside edge. Again, get over it! Fortunately she's gotten rid of that terrible mule kick but she still flutzes!

  16. #36
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    I would give michal brezina all 6.0's for every performance

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