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  1. #81
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    Big bottom, big bottom
    Talk about mud flaps, my girl's got 'em
    Big bottom drive me out of my mind
    How could I leave this behind?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Isn't this a bit like Prater Will syndrome.
    That has a different cause, but shares some characteristics. But Prater Will is much worse and has many more symptoms than just poor appetite control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    going downhill in a progressive manner, it should be your responsibility to get help.
    And what help do you suggest they get?

    It's been well documented that diet & exercise makes people genetically programmed to be obese even FATTER in the long run. It's also well documented that exercise alone rarely leads to sustained weight loss. (Exercise is really about health and not weight when it comes down to it.)

    Here's the thing: I know many, many obese people. Every single one of them has tried multiple things to deal with their weight, often under a doctor's supervision, and for 99% of them, it didn't help. In most cases, it made things worse.

    I'd be extremely surprised if this woman hadn't tried all kinds of things to lose weight in the past. But after a while, when none of them worked and she was still getting heavier, she gave up.

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    If only they had just taken responsibility for themselves when they were visibly getting overweight, it wouldn't be an issue.
    Just as Angeleskates is arguing. But unfortunately it's not that simple.
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  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But unfortunately it's not that simple.
    Sometimes, it really is. I know many, many obese people, or I should say fomerly obese people, who have managed to loose their excess weight using the age old "eat less and better, exercise more". It wasn't overnight, it most cases it took years - and a complete life change, but they did it. I believe the majority of people want a magic wand, but the fact is, it is harder to loose weight than gain weight for most people, and it takes a lot of effort - forever - to maintain a healthy weight for some people. You make it sound like no one who is obese can help it, and that's just not true - not even close.

    I have an eating disorder (recovering) and don't feel hunger, I time when I eat and watch what I eat for that reason. I don't feel full - if I feel "full" I actually feel (and usually am) physcially sick. I have just been travelling and it really threw me off. I would be very easy for me to gain weight by eating too much, and very easy for me to loose weight because I forget to eat. For some, it takes more effort; I still enjoy eating. I am within a healthy BMI and relatively fit; I am not "healthy" and am under constant doctor supervision, but I am mostly happy and that's more important. I do what I can for my health.

    I also know many overweight people, who have become more healthy and remain overweight on the scales, but medically are fine and healthy. I know several underweight people who have tried unsuccessfully to put weight on and are medically fine and healthy - the social stigma for them is also a problem.

    I don't believe this woman acknowledged she had a problem early enough, but I also think it's obvious that she was in control of what - and how much - she was eating - and still is. Otherwise, she wouldn't be trying to change and loose weight now. That said, I also think she has psychological issues that also need to be dealt with - no one gets that big without having an underlying issue that hasn't been dealt with, and IMO no one seeks attention like she now has, without also having other issues.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    It makes sense if you think being very overweight is a sign of laziness, thoughtlessness, stupidity, and gross inconsideration. If such people are viewed as "ewwww" and "disgusting" and "grotesque", then you have to think anyone who would allow themselves to get to such a state has some inherent shortcomings. If only they had just taken responsibility for themselves when they were visibly getting overweight, it wouldn't be an issue. If you view it as a matter of personal responsibility, then it follows someone was highly irresponsible for becoming overweight, and that's a character flaw. The more overweight a person was, the more irresponsible they obviously were.

    I think it's a logical conclusion if that is how you view overweight people in the first place
    I'm not sure. I've never been overweight and I've never had to lose weight, but I imagine it must be very hard for someone to change their lifestyle. It's hard enough for me to put on 10 lbs, I imagine it must be similarly difficult for someone with the opposite issue.

    So if someone WAS overweight or obese and is at a healthy weight now, my first impression is that they must have worked 10000x harder than I ever have to achieve that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    And what help do you suggest they get?

    It's been well documented that diet & exercise makes people genetically programmed to be obese even FATTER in the long run. It's also well documented that exercise alone rarely leads to sustained weight loss. (Exercise is really about health and not weight when it comes down to it.)
    I don't think every obese person is genetically programmed to be that way. I mean the way that you're describing - that no diet or exercise in existence can help. Are obese people having more children than normal weight or thin people? Evolution doesn't work that quickly, at any rate. Even though I joke that I inherited some bona fide skinny genes. It's only partly true, since I admittedly don't eat that much and neither does my family. I'd have to eat a lot more to truly test my genetic propensity for thinness....

    I believe that for most, it's a combination of genetics and external influences. What you eat as well as how much you move. And admittedly, many doctors are not well-versed in nutrition, nor is human metabolism that well understood.

    And I don't judge any obese or overweight people when I see them. Heaven knows what they've tried or haven't tried. I mostly go at those who choose to publicize how heavy they are and how many calories they take in. If you're taking in 10,000 calories a day, you really aren't trying very hard to be healthy.

  5. #85

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    Last edited by Japanfan; 07-16-2012 at 08:57 AM.

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    Japanfan, I'm asking this genuinely, so I hope that comes across - how long does Mr. Japanfan "cut back on food" before deciding that the weight loss isn't following?

    IME, this is where most people have problems, after a week or a month of "starving", they still have lost much - or any, or as much as they wanted - so they figure it isn't worth it, but really, it takes a particular lifestyle, IMO and E with regular check-ups, to maintain a healthy weight, fitness level and general wellbeing.

    ETA: Oops, I'm sorry, I can see you deleted your post right after I posted, I hope not because of my post. Please let me know if you want me to edit out my question.

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    What about that skinny guy Alex?

    Alex, who weighs just 140 pounds, does most of the work in the bedroom.
    Shouldn't he lose weight too?

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    I am always struggling with losing weight. I do well, but then I don't. I don't think it has anything to do with eating though. It's mental. I start to look really good and get a positive comment from the wrong person and the next thing I know, I want food, I want to stay in my desk and not leave the office. It's like having a cough and pneumonia. The cough isn't the illness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    I'm not sure. I've never been overweight and I've never had to lose weight, but I imagine it must be very hard for someone to change their lifestyle. It's hard enough for me to put on 10 lbs, I imagine it must be similarly difficult for someone with the opposite issue.
    Yes it is.

    Most of the people who are successful at it do one of the following:

    -become totally obsessed with staying thin to the point where they are actually neurotic and spend many hours a day working on it including logging all their food forever and weighing themselves every day and exercising excessively, at least an hour a day, 5-7 days a week

    -become a fitness professional so that they are exercising for hours every day leading classes and the like or become interested in endurance sports so they are working out at least 10 hours a week but often as much as 20-25

    -they lose the weight incredibly slowly --- over a matter of years, sometimes as much as 5 years -- so that they don't trigger the famine response, which is when ghrelin levels rise in order to force you to gain back your weight.

    The rest may lose the weight but by 2-5 years later, it's back. With friends.

    As an aside, the famine response tends to kick in when you lose more than 10% of your body weight, which means you have to lose only 20-30 pounds at a time and wait a long time in between before the next weight loss period begins so your body starts to think of your new weight as your set point. Most people can't lose weight that slowly or stop when they get to 25 pounds lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Are obese people having more children than normal weight or thin people? Evolution doesn't work that quickly, at any rate. Even though I joke that I inherited some bona fide skinny genes. It's only partly true, since I admittedly don't eat that much and neither does my family. I'd have to eat a lot more to truly test my genetic propensity for thinness....
    Just because someone has a genetic tendency doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get a certain disease. Something in our environment has to trigger it.

    And our environment has changed quite a bit in a short period of time. This triggers kids to get chubbier faster and younger which triggers them to be put on a diet which then starts them on the yo-yo cycle of dieting. If you have this genetic tendency to react to a diet by your body trying to force you to gain back all your weight plus 10 pounds, but you never go on a diet, at least not a serious one, then you'll never know you have this tendency.

    And when you say you probably aren't genetically programmed to be skinny because you don't eat much, you are misunderstanding how appetite control works. WHY don't you eat much? Just because? No. It's because your body has a set point it wants to be at and that set point is much lower than what society considers normal. Because your set point is that low, your body conspires to get you not to eat. It doesn't make you hungry enough to be a higher weight and so you have to fight it to gain that weight. Just like an obese person has to fight their body to be a lower weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    If you're taking in 10,000 calories a day, you really aren't trying very hard to be healthy.
    Though I have to say, just as I don't think this woman is burning 500 calories an hour having sex, I would be surprised if she's taking 10,000 calories a day. Usually, for sedentary people, you times the weight by 10 and that's how many calories a day they are eating. So she's probably eating about 7,000, if she's not gaining or even losing.

    I think 10,000 just sounds more impressive and she's clearly become invested in portraying herself as this massive eater -- it probably gives her more donations and attention from the feeders to exaggerate what she's eating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    As an aside, the famine response tends to kick in when you lose more than 10% of your body weight, which means you have to lose only 20-30 pounds at a time and wait a long time in between before the next weight loss period begins so your body starts to think of your new weight as your set point. Most people can't lose weight that slowly or stop when they get to 25 pounds lost.
    So...are you saying that the only solution is to never get overweight in the first place? That just says to me that we have to make sure school lunches are healthy and that we keep sodas out of our schools, etc etc. Concentrate on the younger generation, especially if they will be screwed for the rest of their lives if they are fat as kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    And when you say you probably aren't genetically programmed to be skinny because you don't eat much, you are misunderstanding how appetite control works. WHY don't you eat much? Just because? No. It's because your body has a set point it wants to be at and that set point is much lower than what society considers normal. Because your set point is that low, your body conspires to get you not to eat. It doesn't make you hungry enough to be a higher weight and so you have to fight it to gain that weight. Just like an obese person has to fight their body to be a lower weight.
    I find it's also what you're immediately used to. When I'm busy, I forget to eat, or I don't eat that much. Then for the next few days I eat like a bird if I don't think about it. I literally have to remind myself to eat a full meal before my appetite kicks in again and I get hungry faster.

    Though my appetite control definitely has a different general threshold than someone who's struggling to lose weight. If it only took a couple of days of light eating to always eat light, I really don't think losing weight would be such a challenge.

    Also, keep in mind that I'm ridiculously thin. My energy is good and what I eat doesn't concern me at all, and I'm still underweight. (Barely, thanks to a lot of weight training.) I don't think I'm normal at all, and I don't expect other people to take up my habits or even be able to get to my weight.

    But there's still a huge difference between someone like me and someone who eats 7,000+ calories a day and wonders why they aren't healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    Though I have to say, just as I don't think this woman is burning 500 calories an hour having sex, I would be surprised if she's taking 10,000 calories a day. Usually, for sedentary people, you times the weight by 10 and that's how many calories a day they are eating. So she's probably eating about 7,000, if she's not gaining or even losing.

    I think 10,000 just sounds more impressive and she's clearly become invested in portraying herself as this massive eater -- it probably gives her more donations and attention from the feeders to exaggerate what she's eating.
    7,000 still sounds like a ton to me....but you're right, it's better than 10,000.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    So...are you saying that the only solution is to never get overweight in the first place?
    I think the only solution is not to diet. And to really embrace exercise.

    Exercise seems to be the lever that you can pull to both be heather at your current weight (whatever that is) and it's one of the few ways that you can maintain a significant loss because it seems to help reset the body's set point. Or something. We don't really understand the mechanism yet just that exercise, lots of it, not 30 min of moderate exercise 3x a week like some experts say is all we need, can make a difference in the certain circumstances even if, in others, it doesn't lead to weight loss.)

    I will give you an example from figure skating about why I hate dieting and think it's a major contributor to our obesity problem:

    I have seen literally 600 little girls grow up over a period of 10 years. Many, many of them go through a period where they get chunky, especially in the middle. It happens somewhere in the 8-12 year range. (i.e., when they are in pre-puberty -- the state women's bodies go through prior to getting our menses) Then some of them just grow out of it. You see them at 16 and they weigh the same that they did when they were 12 and chunky but now they are 6 inches taller and so their weight is completely normal for their height. They may even be slender!

    But other little girls end up with a weight problem. A life-long weight problem.

    There seem to be two differences between the group. One is genetics. But the other is that the group that ends up not slimming down once they get past puberty are the ones getting a fuss made about their weight, which almost always leads to dieting.

    Not that I'm going to argue against educating people as to what healthy eating is or banning soda from schools. Those are good things too. They can help create the right supportive atmosphere.

    And while we're at it, let's reeducate ourselves as to what a normal portion size is!

    Though my appetite control definitely has a different general threshold than someone who's struggling to lose weight.
    But it stems from the same cause. Your body's set point is low and your body fights you be a "ridiculously" thin weight. While another person's body fights them to be a ridiculously high weight. But the struggle is the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Personally I find it offensive to refer to anyone's physical appearance as groteque as it's very dehumanizing. She is morbidly obese (which I believe is the technical term to describe her weight level), but I wouldn't call her or anyone else's body groteque.

    I also don't think this is difficult to understand. They were in love and got married. He had a previous child, and so they had to blend their family. Blended families often fail because of tensions between the children of one parent and the new spouse, and that's apparently what happened here. Doesn't mean the two stopped loving each other, though.

    She became depressed after their marriage failed which is also very common. It's not dissimilar to a death--the loss of the spouse and their future lives together is deeply mourned. So the woman began eating for comfort to console herself until it reached a state which jeopardized her life. When her ex-husband realized what had happened, he returned to help her lose the weight. And by this time the child may have been grown, so that was no longer an issue.

    Substitute the weight gain for developing a drinking problem, and I don't think it's difficult to see how the situation developed nor how he could still love her. Would you really find it that difficult to understand if a woman still had attraction for her husband if he returned from combat having lost both his legs?

    Anyhow, I'm glad she's getting the weight off, and hope things work out with her ex.
    Dude, good for you.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I think the only solution is not to diet. And to really embrace exercise.

    Exercise seems to be the lever that you can pull to both be heather at your current weight (whatever that is) and it's one of the few ways that you can maintain a significant loss because it seems to help reset the body's set point. Or something. We don't really understand the mechanism yet just that exercise, lots of it, not 30 min of moderate exercise 3x a week like some experts say is all we need, can make a difference in the certain circumstances even if, in others, it doesn't lead to weight loss.)

    I will give you an example from figure skating about why I hate dieting and think it's a major contributor to our obesity problem:

    I have seen literally 600 little girls grow up over a period of 10 years. Many, many of them go through a period where they get chunky, especially in the middle. It happens somewhere in the 8-12 year range. (i.e., when they are in pre-puberty -- the state women's bodies go through prior to getting our menses) Then some of them just grow out of it. You see them at 16 and they weigh the same that they did when they were 12 and chunky but now they are 6 inches taller and so their weight is completely normal for their height. They may even be slender!

    But other little girls end up with a weight problem. A life-long weight problem.

    There seem to be two differences between the group. One is genetics. But the other is that the group that ends up not slimming down once they get past puberty are the ones getting a fuss made about their weight, which almost always leads to dieting.

    Not that I'm going to argue against educating people as to what healthy eating is or banning soda from schools. Those are good things too. They can help create the right supportive atmosphere.

    And while we're at it, let's reeducate ourselves as to what a normal portion size is!
    I agree that "dieting" or generally treating food as some kind of negative control thing is bad. You need to eat. You can't live without food. And if you mess up your relationship with food, it can definitely mess your body up in the long run because of what you decide to put in it, or not put in it.

    And I agree that exercising, or movement in general, is the bar that we should set for health. If you're overweight but can kick serious ass in kickboxing, those extra pounds don't matter much. I think my personal threshold for thinking that someone is "too big" is when they have visible trouble walking because of their size.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But it stems from the same cause. Your body's set point is low and your body fights you be a "ridiculously" thin weight. While another person's body fights them to be a ridiculously high weight. But the struggle is the same.
    But I'm still having trouble understanding how someone's body could even have that set point be at such a ridiculously high weight (I'm talking obese BMI) to begin with, unless they inherited it from somewhere. The thing about the obesity epidemic is how recent it is. I just have trouble imagining that say, their grandparents' bodies really wanted to be obese as well, but there simply wasn't enough food available so they spent their entire lives figuratively starving....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    I think the only solution is not to diet. And to really embrace exercise.

    Exercise seems to be the lever that you can pull to both be heather at your current weight (whatever that is) and it's one of the few ways that you can maintain a significant loss because it seems to help reset the body's set point. Or something. We don't really understand the mechanism yet just that exercise, lots of it, not 30 min of moderate exercise 3x a week like some experts say is all we need, can make a difference in the certain circumstances even if, in others, it doesn't lead to weight loss.)
    Interesting. And what do you mean by "lots of it"?

    I probably exercise 5-6 hours a week, which includes weight-training, the odd session on the eliptical trainer, hiking whenever I can fit it in, and a wee bit of kayaking (wish I could do more but it is not logistically possible). I've maintained this routine for about 10 years and have still gained 5-10 pounds without changing my diet, but look at it from the viewpoint that I'm holding and am fairly strong. I'm within a healthy weight range I would guess, for my age of 53. Some of the women I know in my age range have just ballooned, seemingly like magic. . .

    In truth I'm a lazy worker-outer. I read books between sets and enjoy conversation and nature while hiking/walking. I burn 500 calories an hour on the trainer, whereas other around me burn double and sweat like crazy (I don't like to sweat). Exercise is more about mental than physical benefits for me.

    But I wonder what I would have to do to lose five-ten pounds just through exercise? I get that I have to 'change it up' and get my heart rate up, but don't know what that means in terms of time/type of exercise/amount of sweat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Interesting. And what do you mean by "lots of it"?

    I probably exercise 5-6 hours a week, which includes weight-training, the odd session on the eliptical trainer, hiking whenever I can fit it in, and a wee bit of kayaking (wish I could do more but it is not logistically possible). I've maintained this routine for about 10 years and have still gained 5-10 pounds without changing my diet, but look at it from the viewpoint that I'm holding and am fairly strong. I'm within a healthy weight range I would guess, for my age of 53. Some of the women I know in my age range have just ballooned, seemingly like magic. . .

    In truth I'm a lazy worker-outer. I read books between sets and enjoy conversation and nature while hiking/walking. I burn 500 calories an hour on the trainer, whereas other around me burn double and sweat like crazy (I don't like to sweat). Exercise is more about mental than physical benefits for me.

    But I wonder what I would have to do to lose five-ten pounds just through exercise? I get that I have to 'change it up' and get my heart rate up, but don't know what that means in terms of time/type of exercise/amount of sweat.
    I'm no expert (I only know what pertains to me ) but I imagine it has to do with heart rate. If you get your heart and breathing rate high for a sustained period of time, I bet that burns calories like whoa. And yes, that does involve sweating.

    I came back from the gym tonight and I swear I could feel myself losing 5 lbs just watching other people sweat away doing circuit training.

    Like you, I don't like to sweat much. Cardio makes me feel pukey, so I don't do cardio. I guess I'm screwed if I'm being chased by a bear, or zombies. But weightlifting makes me feel fantastic, so that's what I do. And considering my already-small frame and my mother developing osteoporosis before she turned 50, I think weightlifting is the way to go for me.

    Also, for what it's worth, I think it's better physically to be a little overweight when you're older, than too thin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    But I wonder what I would have to do to lose five-ten pounds just through exercise? I get that I have to 'change it up' and get my heart rate up, but don't know what that means in terms of time/type of exercise/amount of sweat.
    I can't recommend enough getting a personal trainer, even just for an hour or two to talk to you about your own body, routine, likes/dislikes and design a programme for you to follow. If you can see them regularly like once a week, it makes an incredible difference.

    Everyone is different and I think getting someone to work with you is the best way.

    Personally for me the best way to lose weight is a combination of strength (weight) training and cardio. Surprisingly (to me anyway) skewing more time towards strength training over a week than cardio has better results than skewing more towards cardio, which is what I would have thought made better sense for fat burning, but we've tried and tested many different combinations and it seems my body reacts really well to the ratio we have now which is slightly more strength than cardio.

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    Go her! Now 400+more lbs to go!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    7,000 still sounds like a ton to me....but you're right, it's better than 10,000.
    When I was in college, my nutrition class had us do a food diary for 3 weeks (gotta remember that this was 1972 or so, before people found obsessive food diaries through WW or On line).

    I was totally amazed that there were days that I consumed 3,000 or more calories. I weighed 110 pounds at the time. That was before fast food super sizes or even many fast food restaurants. Of course, I was working 2 jobs and going to school - running from class room to class room - burning up a lot of those calories.

    I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to consume that many calories a day. It's reported that Michael Phelps eats 12,000 calories-a-day while in training. Many professional sports players consume that or more - a reason why some sports players gain so much weight post their professional careers is because they do not have a sense of what they actually need to consume a day vs. what they are used to consuming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    I just have trouble imagining that say, their grandparents' bodies really wanted to be obese as well, but there simply wasn't enough food available so they spent their entire lives figuratively starving....
    I agree that's unlikely, but what else has changed in our environment since our grandparents' childhoods? Does our food contain more soy, MSG, corn syrup, artificial coloring and other modern additives that may impact one's thyroid, appetite and insulin levels? What common medications that can cause weight gain--various antibiotics, psychotropic medicines, sleeping medications, oral contraceptives and other hormonal drugs--were not even on the market in our grandparents' youth? Could recent pesticides and other chemicals in our environment affect metabolism?

    It's easy to call today's young'ins lazy and gluttonous, but such talk ages the accuser considerably. Not that you were tossing those epithets, but those who do aren't going to bring about solutions to the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    When I was in college, my nutrition class had us do a food diary for 3 weeks (gotta remember that this was 1972 or so, before people found obsessive food diaries through WW or On line).

    I was totally amazed that there were days that I consumed 3,000 or more calories. I weighed 110 pounds at the time. That was before fast food super sizes or even many fast food restaurants. Of course, I was working 2 jobs and going to school - running from class room to class room - burning up a lot of those calories.

    I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to consume that many calories a day. It's reported that Michael Phelps eats 12,000 calories-a-day while in training. Many professional sports players consume that or more - a reason why some sports players gain so much weight post their professional careers is because they do not have a sense of what they actually need to consume a day vs. what they are used to consuming.
    3,000 is still less than halfway to 7,000. You'd have to be eating more than twice your daily normal intake to get up to what some of these people are eating. Unless of course you never ate to fullness. Then it might be easy. YMMV.

    And Michaels Phelps famously only swims, sleeps, and eats when he's training. Eating that many calories must be considered a job at that point, unless you're literally inhaling your food.

    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    I agree that's unlikely, but what else has changed in our environment since our grandparents' childhoods? Does our food contain more soy, MSG, corn syrup, artificial coloring and other modern additives that may impact one's thyroid, appetite and insulin levels? What common medications that can cause weight gain--various antibiotics, psychotropic medicines, sleeping medications, oral contraceptives and other hormonal drugs--were not even on the market in our grandparents' youth? Could recent pesticides and other chemicals in our environment affect metabolism?

    It's easy to call today's young'ins lazy and gluttonous, but such talk ages the accuser considerably. Not that you were tossing those epithets, but those who do aren't going to bring about solutions to the problem.
    I actually think there's less MSG, corn syrup, hormones, artificial coloring, trans fats, etc, than there was back in say, the 60s and 70s. (Although there might be more soy...the pushback on soy has been much more recent.) Because we know about those additives now and what they can do. And yet people are getting fatter still...

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