View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link

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  • Ilia Kulik

    97 32.77%
  • Alexei Yagudin

    11 3.72%
  • Evgeni Plushenko

    56 18.92%
  • Stéphane Lambiel

    66 22.30%
  • Daisuke Takahashi

    66 22.30%
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  1. #61
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    re: Chan

    For some

    a) He's overmarked
    b) He's not a great interpreter of music
    c) His body of work pales next to some of these skaters
    d) His specific skill set isn't something that is all that important to some
    e) He's up against some really phenomenal skaters.
    f) His on-ice inconsistency (regardless of the results)

    arguably contributed to why he could make the top half of the last twelve champions, but go no further. Truthfully, I'm rather glad he didn't make the top five, because this is the first time I'd have to vote for him, and as an uber, I'd rather not.

  2. #62
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    ^^ except for (f), the same applies even more to Plushenko.

  3. #63
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    For those who don't just want to count medals and titles, I offer one more criterion:

    Imagine all the remaining skaters compete together in a competition where they did exactly the same elements. Now, who do you give the lowest second mark / PCS / GOE to?

  4. #64
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    Poor Lambiel! I predict after he's voted off, it will be Plushenko, then Yagudin.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    Poor Lambiel! I predict after he's voted off, it will be Plushenko, then Yagudin.
    You think Takahashi will win? It seems pretty unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    ^^ except for (f), the same applies even more to Plushenko.
    Well, this is subjective, so several of these points could apply to anyone. The point was that a lot of people were applying them specifically to Chan.

    I'm not a huge fan of Plushenko, but he has had an incredible career. Chan has had some good seasons. That's hardly the same. And I agree that Plush has been overmarked at times, but not to the point of winning things he probably shouldn't have. Can't say the same for some of the other skaters in the poll (including Yagudin).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Imagine all the remaining skaters compete together in a competition where they did exactly the same elements. Now, who do you give the lowest second mark / PCS / GOE to?
    I'd be more inclined to consider this hypothetical competition if we assume the skaters will revert to form technically. Some skaters in this list have been a lot more consistent technically over their careers, thus the superior results.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holley Calmes View Post
    Was Lambiel really that much better than Takahashi? I adore them both-two of my very favorite skaters. But Dai is getting more begone votes! 'Splain that to me.
    I can't 'splain it. I think Dai is the most watchable skater in the world today...and has been since the days of Paul Wylie..JMHO..

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    I can't 'splain it. I think Dai is the most watchable skater in the world today...and has been since the days of Paul Wylie..JMHO..
    I almost agree. Except that for me Lambiel was not/is not any less watchable. Perhaps he was a bit less "watchable'' than Dai is today when he won his two worlds, but that's natural, since he was 19 and 20 then, but Dai is 26 now. Later though, despite less successful skates and competitions, Stephane became at least equal to the current Daisuke - like here .

    And, now, watching also Stephane's exhibition programs, I realize that he is probably an even more versatile performer than Dai. That all imho, of course.
    Last edited by lauravvv; 07-10-2012 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #68
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    I'm not altogether sure why people think Plushenko is necessarily deserving of making it to the final.

    Other than jumping ability, which is an important consideration, and competitive record (largely tied to being such a good jumper), I don't think there is much to make him he a "stronger link" than Takahashi or Lambiel. Those two are the better skaters, the better spinners, and the better interpreters of music.

    Also, whereas Kulik's abbreviated career makes him a weak link, Plushenko's career is, if anything, less impressive than it could be (in my opinion, at least), because he stayed in so long. His programs between when he withdrew from Worlds in 2005 and this past season were marked by scratchy landings and empty choreography. In 2011-12, he finally started to improve his choreography and put in some transitions, but the programs still weren't in same the league as Lambiel and Takahashi's.

    I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking in the next to rounds because I think it is a close call between those three skaters.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Also, whereas Kulik's abbreviated career makes him a weak link, Plushenko's career is, if anything, less impressive than it could be (in my opinion, at least), because he stayed in so long. His programs between when he withdrew from Worlds in 2005 and this past season were marked by scratchy landings and empty choreography. In 2011-12, he finally started to improve his choreography and put in some transitions, but the programs still weren't in same the league as Lambiel and Takahashi's..
    Interesting post.

    The cool thing about Plush is that you could totally discount everything after 2006 (I realize you're including the 2006 season in your list of seasons he had poor programs), and he would still have the second best record on the list (behind Yagudin). In fact you can cut his 2006 OGM out and he still has a better record than many guys on this list, including Takahashi and Lambiel.

    The extra Olympic medal and European titles (2010-12) are just gravy (which pushes him toward the all time greats, IMO). So, since the criteria are open, you may consider judging him just on his best years, if you want.

    Everyone will judge on their own criteria, of course. Some people would surely consider Urmanov to have better musicality and basic skating than some of the men who outlasted him, but he was eliminated early. So some will opt for Lambiel and Takahashi due to their non-jumping elements, while others will opt to keep Plushy because of his competitive nerve. There's no right or wrong answer.

    I don't think of Plushy as just a jumper, either, but as a very entertaining, charismatic skater who totally commands the ice. He received 6.0s under the old system (and was the first to receive one for artistry in the worlds QR, IIRC). I'm pretty sure he has received level 4 footwork, and he was the first guy to do a Biellman spin, so he does have some impressive non-jump stuff in his repertoire, even if that's not his forte. I totally understand if some find Lambiel and/or Takahashi better in these aspects (as do I, in some areas), but I don't think Plush is totally devoid of any artistry.

    I would also humbly note that even in his non-peak year of 2010, he almost won, and did beat Takahashi and Lambiel. And when he was dominant, he was really dominant, winning by huge margins.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I don't think of Plushy as just a jumper, either, but as a very entertaining, charismatic skater who totally commands the ice. He received 6.0s under the old system (and was the first to receive one for artistry in the worlds QR, IIRC). I'm pretty sure he has received level 4 footwork, and he was the first guy to do a Biellman spin, so he does have some impressive non-jump stuff in his repertoire, even if that's not his forte. I totally understand if some find Lambiel and/or Takahashi better in these aspects (as do I, in some areas), but I don't think Plush is totally devoid of any artistry.
    Indeed he has, back when tech panels were quite stingy with the step levels. And ITA with your assessment of his skating and career.

  11. #71
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    Nope, Plushenko is not totally devoid of artistry, but of the original twelve skaters, I'd rate him in the lower half on that criterion -- clearly above Stojko, but somewhere around Eldredge, Lysacek, and Joubert, a little below Urmanov, Kulik, and Chan, and well below Buttle, Lambiel, Takahashi, and Yagudin. (That's just my opinion, of course, and I can quite see how someone would switch around my middle seven skaters.)

    I am well aware that Plushenko has an outstanding competitive record, but in that respect he's somewhat similar to Stojko. Regardless of what the CoP protocols in the second half of his career might say, he won because of his jumps. Take away the jumps, and what do you have? You've got a lot more than you do with Stojko, but a lot less than you do with Lambiel and Takahashi. OTOH, look at only the jumps, and you have a lot more from Plushenko than from those two. So, I think that voting for any of these three as the weakest link in the next round would be perfectly reasonable.

  12. #72
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    In the last round should be Yagudin and Plushenko, based on merits the latter should win (from Olympics a gold medal + two silver medals so far).

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Take away the jumps, and what do you have? You've got a lot more than you do with Stojko...
    He has gained more standing ovations than both of the rest not that Lambiel and Daisuke dont deserve every standing ovation there is.

    I cringe to the thought that Plush is like Stojko, but to each their own so I ll pass.
    Plush with his not so sophisticated artistry has made the sport rather more open or popular to mainstream audience, anyone who was at euros this year knows it was all about him.

  14. #74
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    Let's be serious here, I've never been a Plushenko fan (strong understatement) but there's no denying his track record or accomplishments.

    He should be a lock for one of the top two spots here (even if I would rather he not be the final 'winner')

    But.... people here were pretty quick to deny Stojko his accomplishments (also not a Stojko fan) so there's obviously a different kind of logic going on here so who knows....

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Let's be serious here, I've never been a Plushenko fan (strong understatement) but there's no denying his track record or accomplishments.

    He should be a lock for one of the top two spots here (even if I would rather he not be the final 'winner')

    But.... people here were pretty quick to deny Stojko his accomplishments (also not a Stojko fan) so there's obviously a different kind of logic going on here so who knows....
    I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.
    So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    So is anyone considering voting Yagudin out before Takahashi and Lambiel? (Serious question). Yags is closer to Plushy when it comes to spins, footwork, and transitions than he is to those guys. (I think Yags is more musical and has better P/E though).
    Not before the last round. If, however, either Takahashi or Lambiel makes it to the Final Two, I'll have to think long and hard about that. Yagudin never competed under CoP, so there is a bit of apples-and-oranges going on. Yes, there was a bit of apples-and-oranges going on with comparing Urmanov, Eldredge, and Stojko to Chan, but that was with radically different grades of fruit.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    I almost agree. Except that for me Lambiel was not/is not any less watchable. Perhaps he was a bit less "watchable'' than Dai is today when he won his two worlds, but that's natural, since he was 19 and 20 then, but Dai is 26 now. Later though, despite less successful skates and competitions, Stephane became at least equal to the current Daisuke - like here .

    And, now, watching also Stephane's exhibition programs, I realize that he is probably an even more versatile performer than Dai. That all imho, of course.
    I like Lambiel..a lot. He has charisma and talent. I just happen to enjoy Dai more than any other skater on the planet..and have since about 2005. I find him to be totally mesmerizing.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think a lot of people simply don't merely take accomplishments as the be all and end all of a skater's being. If you see past the medals, it's not hard to see why many people think Takahashi and Lambiel are better skaters than Plushenko.
    You can count other facts too, like his new jumping combos, his young age competing, his flexibility, the longevity, the comebacks, the charisma etc. But Lambiel and Takahashi are better skaters indeed and in terms of skating they are better skaters than Yagudin too. But Plushenko and Yagudin were better competitors. If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by senorita View Post
    If you see past medals, Abt was the better skater too.

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