View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

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  • Lu Chen

    144 38.61%
  • Michelle Kwan

    21 5.63%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    43 11.53%
  • Mao Asada

    120 32.17%
  • Yuna Kim

    45 12.06%
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
    Sorry Mao.
    Yeah, me too. I think she is much stronger as a person than as a skater, and in the long run that will serve her well.
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    OMG, did you even read what I wrote? Ever since Irina won GPF 1999-2000 she was clearly favoured over Michelle by the judges. 2000 and 2001 Worlds were her to take. Irina usually won even if they both made mistakes. Look at the GPF in 2000-2001 and 2001-2002.
    I really think it has more to do with their approach to trainging than with favoritism. Irina generally skated at an A- level all season long, and Michelle would stick with B or B+ but pull out A's and A+'s near the end of the season. Irina won a few sprints, but Michelle usually won the Marathon. They never both skated clean shorts and longs at the same competition so it's hard to tell exactly what the judges would do in that scenario.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I really think it has more to do with their approach to trainging than with favoritism. Irina generally skated at an A- level all season long, and Michelle would stick with B or B+ but pull out A's and A+'s near the end of the season. Irina won a few sprints, but Michelle usually won the Marathon. They never both skated clean shorts and longs at the same competition so it's hard to tell exactly what the judges would do in that scenario.
    I agree, but I think they would still favor Irina over all others that period if everyone skated their best. She almost always won the short program in the early 2000s (and after her comeback too) and I think that is the best indicator who the judges think has the edge. Similar to how Kim winning short programs by huge margins in the late 2000s gave a clear message to others it was Kim's to win or lose, and how Kwan dominated the short programs in the late 90s, giving the same indication. All the times Sasha won the short program in the mid 2000s gave a similar indication, but of course you could count on her to not do a clean LP.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I mostly agree, but I would give Irina the runner up in the IJS skater to Yu Na as well. She was killing it for about 15 months when COP first started, and her Worlds LP had her triple not been discounted would been about 136, which is higher than Mao's PB, and to achieve a 70 short program without a triple-triple in 2006 (and the score inflation has alreayd been discussed in other threads) is insanely good.
    I couldn't agree more! This is so special about Irina. To me she's very close second to Michelle in 6.0 but also second place in CoP after Yu-Na too.

    If they had counted her third loop or if she hadn't forgot that she'd already landed it in combination with triple lutz she would've set a record score that wouldn't be broken until Yu-Na's Olympic performance.

  5. #125
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    Chen.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Who is this "we", you have been given the power to speak for all. I dont hate Lu Chen, in fact I like her, and defended her in many of the previous rounds. The fact I acknowledge she is outclassed by the others on this group, and dimiss the false notion she was robbed of being a 4 or 5 time World Champion by politics which seems to be the line of defense being used against these more accomplished and dominant greats (the only one to go to), in no way infers I hate her. It just means I am not clueless to reality.

    Mao's career is already much better than Lu's. What happens from here is irrelevant.
    What!?!?!? If I knew how to cross-post, I would give you some proof of your extreme dislike of Lulu from previous threads.
    Last edited by smarts1; 07-04-2012 at 12:35 AM.

  7. #127
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    The total vote count is already 20 more numerous than the previous one. I guess the "additional" new accounts are created for this poll. It's quite useless to continue.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Ever since Irina won GPF 1999-2000 she was clearly favoured over Michelle by the judges.
    Yeah, I used to let kwanparanoia make me think that too back then. Then she clearly URed her 3f in the SP and still won over a clean Irina and I realized that they really really wanted Kwan to win SLC.
    Irina NEVER lost her lutz throughout her whole career so your point is totally irrelevant.

    Those 3Zs she did in her SPs at 97 and 98 worlds and Nagano really were a thing of beauty, weren't they? Um... denial much?
    It was a different system. Nobody took anyone seriously in the late 90s/early 00s without a 3z/2t in the sp... look at Bonaly at Nagano. Irina never would have risked it if she thought she could get away with the 3t/3t like she tried in the LP, where she reduced her layout to 1 3z attempt because the jump was giving her fits and was no longer reliable. Mao never really lost her 3z anymore any any other lady who did a crappy one, but she skates during a period where poor tech is so severely judged, its best to leave it out. apples vs oranges.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    What!?!?!? If I knew how to cross-post, I would give you some proof of your extreme dislike of Lulu from previous threads.
    Translation: you know full well there is no proof so you come up with a cheesy excuse to not provide it. Thanks.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Translation: you know full well there is no proof so you come up with a cheesy excuse to not provide it. Thanks.
    I called you out on it last round and you didn't say one word to it and now you're coming out all of sudden and being overly defensive?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree, but I think they would still favor Irina over all others that period if everyone skated their best. She almost always won the short program in the early 2000s (and after her comeback too) and I think that is the best indicator who the judges think has the edge. Similar to how Kim winning short programs by huge margins in the late 2000s gave a clear message to others it was Kim's to win or lose, and how Kwan dominated the short programs in the late 90s, giving the same indication. All the times Sasha won the short program in the mid 2000s gave a similar indication, but of course you could count on her to not do a clean LP.
    Re: Irina and Yuna's sp comparison: I don't really think you can compare the judging from CoP to 6.0. In CoP, the lp is really the same as the sp, with four more jumps and a spiral sequence (currently). That might be a bit of an oversimplification, but in 6.0, the long program was very different than the sp and the judges were looking for something more than just difficulty. They wanted creativity, presentation, staying on your feet. There was a much greater emphasis on the presentation mark. Just look at the 98 Olympics. Even dopey Scott Hamilton said things like "the judges view Michelle as 1-2 tenths better than Tara, so she can afford a mistake." Michelle won the sp 8-1 and lost the lp 3-6. So, obviously, the judges were willing to change their picks...

    IMO, the sp was Irina's stronger event, and the lp was stronger for Michelle. Culture, for example was one of the best sp's of that era and it would take one heck of an effort for Michelle (or anyone else) to beat it. Personally, I'm not convinced that even Irina's famous GPF performance with 2 3/3s could take on some of Michelle's best 7 triple performances but I guess we'll never know. They were very closely matched when you tally all of the strengths and weaknesses together so I think it would depend on the panel. It's worth noting (IMO at least) that the judges could have gone with Slutskaya in 2000 or 2001 but they didn't. It would have been controversial, but there have been much more controversial decisions before and after. Michelle was not as great as Irina in the jump and spin department, but she was close enough that if she landed her planned content and placed top 3 in the sp, her superior performance ability would carry her to victory as the presentation mark weighs more heavily in a free program.

    I also agree that on a strictly CoP based poll, Irina would be a clear strong second to Kim. A system that rewards difficulty more than anything else was tailor-made for Slutskaya's skating style!

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Yeah, I used to let kwanparanoia make me think that too back then. Then she clearly URed her 3f in the SP and still won over a clean Irina and I realized that they really really wanted Kwan to win SLC.

    Those 3Zs she did in her SPs at 97 and 98 worlds and Nagano really were a thing of beauty, weren't they? Um... denial much?
    It was a different system. Nobody took anyone seriously in the late 90s/early 00s without a 3z/2t in the sp... look at Bonaly at Nagano. Irina never would have risked it if she thought she could get away with the 3t/3t like she tried in the LP, where she reduced her layout to 1 3z attempt because the jump was giving her fits and was no longer reliable. Mao never really lost her 3z anymore any any other lady who did a crappy one, but she skates during a period where poor tech is so severely judged, its best to leave it out. apples vs oranges.
    To be fair, she didn't "reduce" her layout to one 3z. AFAIR, Irina always planned only one lutz until she started revamping her entrance circa 1999. She did throw in a second one once or twice when the first one didn't go so well, however (96 worlds). Even in her breakout performance at the 99 GPF where she debuted 3z/3r, she did only one lutz and in the spot where the second had been she substituted a 3toe.

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    The total vote count is already 20 more numerous than the previous one. I guess the "additional" new accounts are created for this poll. It's quite useless to continue.
    My account was created about 3 years ago and I voted just once only in this thread. BTW, how did you find the additional new accounts in the poll?

    This is so biased and unfair BUT *not useless*. Moreover, SamuraiK is doing these very well. It's not that easy so I respect his efforts.

    Remember this is "The Trash Can" where you're. Let’s just relax and enjoy yourself! Or why not create a poll 'Is the ~~ poll useless or not.' JK
    This too will pass away.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    It's worth noting (IMO at least) that the judges could have gone with Slutskaya in 2000 or 2001 but they didn't. It would have been controversial, but there have been much more controversial decisions before and after.
    Agree on 2001 but definitely not on 2000. In 2000 Michelle skated flawlessly with 7 triples, 2 triple lutzes, a triple-triple, and Irina popped a jump wide open, managed only 6 triples, no triple-triple, and had to rearrange her program to throw in a jump. 2000 there was no way the judges could have gone for Irina, yet 2 or 3 judges still did (which shocked the heck out of me after her performances finished, I was wondering only if she would even place 2nd over Maria to give Michelle the gold or not, and when her technical marks came up I was like WTF she might win by winning the LP), which tells me this particular panel would have gone with her hands down, and she wouldnt have even needed a harder triple-triple, just a simpler triple-triple or even a 7th triple would have likely sufficed (although based on the short program they might have gone for Maria over both of them this year only).

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    I called you out on it last round and you didn't say one word to it
    I generally ignore annoying posters.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by RunnersHigh View Post

    Remember this is "The Trash Can" where you're. Let’s just relax and enjoy yourself! Or why not create a poll 'Is the ~~ poll useless or not.' JK
    This poll is more important than the US presidential election! If anyone creates the poll you suggested, I vow to create at least 20 pseuds to uphold its legitimacy!

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post

    I generally ignore annoying posters.
    And you're not?

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    LMAO um no.
    Im sorry but Michelle and Chen have considerably weaker technical ability than the rest on this poll. Yeah they both are good artistically but so are Yuna and Mao. Michelle and Chen could never do any good 3-3 combinations ( sometimes 3T+3T ) while the others on this poll consistently pulled of fantastic 3-3 combinations of much harder difficulty than 3t+3t. In my opinion Chen should be voted out now, the either michelle or Irina because they both lack either technical ability (michelle) or atristic ability(irina), while Mao and Yuna exceeded at both

  18. #138
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    Mao and Yu Na might have it all skating wise but they dont have the consistency, longevity, or strong competitive abilities of Michelle, Irina, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katarina Witt, or Tara Lipinski. How else to explain how they allowed a WAY less talented skater like Miki Ando to win the same # of World/Olympic titles as them in the same era- 2. Imagine if Miki ends up with more combined World and Olympic titles than Mao and Yu Na, that would be utterly embarassing considering the huge talent edge those two have over her. Would Miki even win 1 World title in the Michelle/Irina era?

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Mao and Yu Na might have it all skating wise but they dont have the consistency, longevity, or strong competitive abilities of Michelle, Irina, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katarina Witt, or Tara Lipinski. How else to explain how they allowed a WAY less talented skater like Miki Ando to win the same # of World/Olympic titles as them in the same era- 2. Imagine if Miki ends up with more combined World and Olympic titles than Mao and Yu Na, that would be utterly embarassing considering the huge talent edge those two have over her. Would Miki even win 1 World title in the Michelle/Irina era?
    While I agree Miki is not as talented as Mao, Yu-na, or the rest of the list, Miki at the 2007 Worlds was very strong. She could have easily challenged for gold during the the early 2000s. A clean SP and FP, both complete with a triple lutz-triple loop, 7 total triples, and decent presentation, can clearly challenge Michelle and Irina. I thought her programs were choreographically fairly strong that year. In 2000, for example, she should place 2nd in the SP and FP at the very lowest (and 1st in the QR with her FP that year), and still win Worlds.

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    Miki did a triple lutz-triple loop at the 2004 Worlds and was still crushed by a clean Sasha and her triple-double, a not clean and not very good (in that performance) Arakawa, and would have been below Kwan and her triple-double without her time violation. I imagine her 2007 Worlds SP would have placed 4th in the short at the 2000 Worlds. Maria was exquisite and simply unbeatable that day, her best short program ever, and Irina and Michelle were both fairly clean and very strong and their overall elements and presentation would have easily kept them above Miki. Miki's difficult triple-triple would have successfully pushed her ahead of Gusmeroli, Hughes, and Nikidinov, all whom probably would have beaten her that day without it as well. As for the LP given Michelle's amazing skate and Irina's high marks maybe 3rd place ahead of Butyrskaya in the LP if lucky. Overall probably 4th place due to Maria's short program.

    The thing to remember about Miki is she is not even a complete technical skater. She is not in the league of an overall skater of even Slutskaya who is also labeled a jumper predominantly. Slutskaya had excellent spins, footwork, even adequate spirals. Miki pales in comparision to Irina in all those elements, only in jumps can she compete. Slutskaya also had tremendous speed over the ice, and her presentation was quite strong in many areas, she had command and presence, a vivacious personality and high performance level, and at times even some nice musicality. So Ando in overall presentation pales as well. Outside of excellent jumps, ability to do triple-triples, and mutually ugly positions and lack of polish, they really arent comparable at all. One is a master technician in all senses, not just in jumping, who manages to have a quite strong overall presentation too despite her lack of polish. The other is just a jumper who worked hard to raise her spins and overall presentation to something that generously could be deemed arguably adequate at one point.

    I do agree Miki at the 2007 Worlds was quite excellent though, even if I still highly doubt such a one dimensional skater winning Worlds in the Kwan era. She still needed Mao to blow 8 points on her combination alone in the short and give up another 7 points with an undrortation + 2 foot landing and 2 foot landing in the LP (still losing the LP by 6 points to Mao with her own squeeky clean skate) to barely eke Mao, and Yu Na to take two huge falls and have a mini meltdown in the LP to edge her. Even if you totally disagree with me there, which I suspect you do though, what to say about her 2011 Worlds winning performances. 5 triples, no triple flip, a miss on her key element, and this from a skater who even with some improvement over the years is still essentialy nothing more than a jumper. Forget would that performance have ever won a World title in the Kwan/Slutskaya era (duh of course not), but would it have even ever won a medal in any year. Yet Kim and Asada who were both competing at those Worlds let that performance win a 2nd World title for Ando. Not good for them.

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