View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

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  • Lu Chen

    144 38.61%
  • Michelle Kwan

    21 5.63%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    43 11.53%
  • Mao Asada

    120 32.17%
  • Yuna Kim

    45 12.06%
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  1. #261

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    It doesn't seem to matter anyway. From the ways things are progressing, Asada will be gone in Round 9.

    I do wonder how this poll series would have ended up had Cohen and/or Suguri won a World championship.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It doesn't seem to matter anyway. From the ways things are progressing, Asada will be gone in Round 9.

    I do wonder how this poll series would have ended up had Cohen and/or Suguri won a World championship.
    If Suguri won 2006 Worlds and replaced Meissner on the poll, she would have been the first one voted off too.

    And, Amy... you need help girl. I'm sure you can find a reputable shrink somewhere in Tokyo.

  3. #263
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    Round 9 will simply have to be about who your favorite skater is, because there's a convincing argument to be made for all four skaters to say who is the best:

    Michelle and Irina are stronger than Mao and Yuna for their longevity. Michelle had more artistry than Irina but Irina had more energy and speed.
    Michelle and Irina's programs lack the kind of difficulty and precision seen in Mao's and Yuna's CoP programs.
    Mao has skated the most technically challenging program in figure skating history and is the only one within the four to have a triple-axel.
    Yuna got the highest score in Olympic history.

    Really hard to tell!

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawnie View Post
    If Suguri won 2006 Worlds and replaced Meissner on the poll, she would have been the first one voted off too.
    Suguri might have outlasted Hughes (undeservedly IMO). Cohen in the poll would have been the real interesting thing to see.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Suguri might have outlasted Hughes (undeservedly IMO). Cohen in the poll would have been the real interesting thing to see.
    Cohen's torch would have probably been snuffed either before or after Chen. I don't think she would have outlasted the final 4 of Slute, Kwan, Kim, and Asada.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
    Mao has skated the most technically challenging program in figure skating history and is the only one within the four to have a triple-axel.
    No disrespect to Mao, but her triple axels have never impressed me. They don't seem to get much height or distance, and I don't think her technical side has ever excited me. Rather, I liked some of her 2006-2008ish programs from an artistic standpoint, though I don't remember enjoying her 2010 Olympic programs.

    For me, there are no ladies who have surpassed Midori Ito or Tonya Harding in the "Wow!" realm of technical achievement.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
    Round 9 will simply have to be about who your favorite skater is, because there's a convincing argument to be made for all four skaters to say who is the best:

    Michelle and Irina are stronger than Mao and Yuna for their longevity. Michelle had more artistry than Irina but Irina had more energy and speed.
    Michelle and Irina's programs lack the kind of difficulty and precision seen in Mao's and Yuna's CoP programs.
    Mao has skated the most technically challenging program in figure skating history and is the only one within the four to have a triple-axel.
    Yuna got the highest score in Olympic history.

    Really hard to tell!
    Well, Irina also had difficult CoP programs in her career with all the levels and high GOE. Her ability to skate very successfully under both system is remarkable.

    To Mao's advantages I would also add the fact that she is the most flexible skater out of those, and has the best line, posture and the best positions in spins and spirals.

    Irina and Michelle have also full set of triples (apart from axel of course), Mao doesn't do lutz and sal and Yu-Na doesn't do loop. However, if Irina and Michelle had competed under current version of CoP they would've been penalised for flutz as well as Asada and what would they have done? Irina could've got away with it because she actually took off from flat but Michelle definitely flutzed.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plusdinfo View Post
    No disrespect to Mao, but her triple axels have never impressed me. They don't seem to get much height or distance, and I don't think her technical side has ever excited me. Rather, I liked some of her 2006-2008ish programs from an artistic standpoint, though I don't remember enjoying her 2010 Olympic programs.

    For me, there are no ladies who have surpassed Midori Ito or Tonya Harding in the "Wow!" realm of technical achievement.
    Sure, Mao's triple-axel has achieved less height and distance than the ones achieved by Midori and Tonya, but I do believe Mao tops these two in the number of ratified triple-axels.

    Anyway, neither Midori and Tonya are on the poll, and here, you only have to compare Mao's existent triple-axel with the other threes' non-existent triple-axels.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    However, if Irina and Michelle had competed under current version of CoP they would've been penalised for flutz as well as Asada and what would they have done? Irina could've got away with it because she actually took off from flat but Michelle definitely flutzed.
    And If Yuna and Mao competed during the Michelle/Irina rivalry they would likely have been punished for not being well-rounded and leaving out triples. Who finished top five at worlds without at least attempting all triples up to the lutz during that time? And your comments about Michelle and Irina's lutzes are just your opinion. Also, there are a lot of skaters with similar take-offs like Suzuki, Nakano, Nagasu (just to name a few) who have been hit or miss with lutz/flip calls. Heck, Zhang and Wagner even got credit for their lutzes at 4CC this year. And who is to say that they wouldn't have cleaned up any minor edge issues had there been a need for it? Just like Mao and Yuna would probably be trying their least favorite triples if it was expected of them.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    And If Yuna and Mao competed during the Michelle/Irina rivalry they would likely have been punished for not being well-rounded and leaving out triples. Who finished top five at worlds without at least attempting all triples up to the lutz during that time? And your comments about Michelle and Irina's lutzes are just your opinion. Also, there are a lot of skaters with similar take-offs like Suzuki, Nakano, Nagasu (just to name a few) who have been hit or miss with lutz/flip calls. Heck, Zhang and Wagner even got credit for their lutzes at 4CC this year. And who is to say that they wouldn't have cleaned up any minor edge issues had there been a need for it? Just like Mao and Yuna would probably be trying their least favorite triples if it was expected of them.
    Kim would have been in the same situation Yamaguchi was in. Yamaguchi always attempted the salchow even though she rarely landed it. Kim has landed the loop a few times during her career though.

    Asada would have been way more successful under 6.0 since flutzes and underrotations were not so closely scrutinized.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    LOL what planet are you on. Her performance at Russian Nationals was much better.
    Your Planet, it might be the jetlag
    Seriously, at 2001 Worlds, she attempted two 3/3/2. It was not the case at 2001 Russian Nats, with one, cheated 3Lutz/3Loop.
    So, maybe we can consider her 2001 Russian Nats LP better, but not by much, IMO

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
    Round 9 will simply have to be about who your favorite skater is
    hasn't that been the way people have been voting all this time? Judging by the results, it seems so

  13. #273
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    Amy03 & antmanb, please take your squabbles to PM. Thank you.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Your Planet, it might be the jetlag
    Seriously, at 2001 Worlds, she attempted two 3/3/2. It was not the case at 2001 Russian Nats, with one, cheated 3Lutz/3Loop.
    So, maybe we can consider her 2001 Russian Nats LP better, but not by much, IMO
    Attempting a 2nd 3-3 means nothing since she missed it, so it ended up being a negative, not a postiive. In fact it was attempting and missing the 2nd 3/3 that lost her the gold (likely). At Russian Nationals she landed a harder 3/3, did not make a significant mistake like at Worlds, and did not rearrange her program and have other shaky moments in the 2nd half. No contest her Russian Nationals performance was better.

    As you said pretty much all her 3/3s were slightly cheated so no difference there. Sarah Hughes were even more cheated and still always counted as evidenced by her tech. scores which with her fugly, technically wrong, and small jumps she would never get without the 3/3s she did. That was 6.0 for you, for better or worse.

  15. #275

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    And now I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever be able to see Yuna's triple loop in the future with these discussions about having all-round triple jumps.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    She broke the Zayak rule so that can't count as a seven triple programme, three of the same triple is illegal she didn't get credit for it at the competition.

    Also the GPF 3/3s were not the best quality - the 3Lp on the end of the lutz had a good 1/3 or a turn on the landing, and the triple loop she did on the end of the salchow landed right up on the toe, and she a one rev camel spin on the toe pic on the landing. She stood them up but they were not good quality.
    Half of Michelle's jumps in her glorious SOTBS winning program were underrotated including her triple-triple combination.

    Even if we consider the fact that those two triple-triples were not the best quality, the performance itself slays technically everyhting Michelle did in her whole career. As do 2005 Worlds even with the third triple loop...

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Half of Michelle's jumps in her glorious SOTBS winning program were underrotated including her triple-triple combination.

    Even if we consider the fact that those two triple-triples were not the best quality, the performance itself slays technically everyhting Michelle did in her whole career. As do 2005 Worlds even with the third triple loop...
    I agree, all of Michelle's competition wins were a complete farse!

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Half of Michelle's jumps in her glorious SOTBS winning program were underrotated including her triple-triple combination.

    Even if we consider the fact that those two triple-triples were not the best quality, the performance itself slays technically everyhting Michelle did in her whole career. As do 2005 Worlds even with the third triple loop...
    Really? If it Irina's RN LP in 2001 slays Kwan so easily then how come one step-out at worlds in the same routine was enough to make 7 judges go for Kwan? You can spout on and on, but it's just speculation on your part.

    And in 2005, maybe you should watch again. In addition to violating the Zayak rule , Slutskaya's final combo spin was a mess and she forget her footwork sequence midway down the rink and stumbled awkwardly. Oh, and there was also her short program. Yes, it was a great competition for Irina, but as usual her lack of attention to detail and not finishing off her elements left a "sloppy image" to the end of her program as Peggy would say.

    I like Slutskaya. I'm not a fan, but I respect her competitive spirit, her willingness to take risk, and the difficulty in many of her elements. I wanted her to win the 2006 OGM. But I personally don't think she ever skated a long program that could top Kwan at her best. In the long program, presentation had slightly more emphasis and was the tie breaker. Michelle was able to make her programs look seamless, well-balanced, and had an understanding of presentation that Irina just never developed.
    Last edited by Triple Butz; 07-06-2012 at 11:46 PM.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Really? If it Irina's RN LP in 2001 slays Kwan so easily then how come one step-out at worlds in the same routine was enough to make 7 judges go for Kwan? You can spout on and on, but it's just speculation on your part.

    And in 2005, maybe you should watch again. In addition to violating the Zayak rule , Slutskaya's final combo spin was a mess and she forget her footwork sequence midway down the rink and stumbled awkwardly. Oh, and there was also her short program. Yes, it was a great competition for Irina, but as usual her lack of attention to detail and not finishing off her elements left a "sloppy image" to the end of her program as Peggy would say.

    I like Slutskaya. I'm not a fan, but I respect her competitive spirit, her willingness to take risk, and the difficulty in many of her elements. I wanted her to win the 2006 OGM. But I personally don't think she ever skated a long program that could top Kwan at her best. In the long program, presentation had slightly more emphasis and was the tie breaker. Michelle was able to make her programs look seamless, well-balanced, and had an understanding of presentation that Irina just never developed.
    I did not say it slays Michelle's performance overall, I said it slays it technically. Under 6.0 stepping up and messing up the whole combination the way Irina did, it was penalised quite severely. Yet, the judges still awarded Irina higher marks for technical merit than Michelle who won on the strength of her presentation marks. If performance with the big mistake on a combination is given higher marks for technical merit, then flawless performance from 2001 Nats surely slays Kwan's SOTBS technically.

    I wouldn't ever call Irina's 2005 Worlds free skate sloppy. Her 2001 Worlds FS definitely can be called sloppy, I agree, but not her winning skate from 2005 Worlds. Personally, I think this performance, apart from being extraordinary technically EVEN WITH the third triple loop, is one of the most moving and emotional performance in skating history. After she'd been through the previous season, she pulled off seven triples (the third triple loop is still triple) with the most difficult triple-triple done by a lady ever in competition and her joy of skating was simply unmatched.

    Also, it's not just my opinion that Michelle flutzed. You can go to youtube, pick up the first Michelle's performance you can think of, watch the slow-motion for the lutz and see it yourself. She just couldn't stay on the outside edge and always took off from either shallow inside edge or flat. The thing with flutzing, it's not like in my opinion she flutzed and you reckon she did not. It's plain and simple that she changed her edge just before taking off and everyone can see that.
    Last edited by bartek; 07-07-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Really? If it Irina's RN LP in 2001 slays Kwan so easily then how come one step-out at worlds in the same routine was enough to make 7 judges go for Kwan? You can spout on and on, but it's just speculation on your part.
    In fairness it seems bartek is ONLY talking about the technical side, and Irina even with her mistakes did still score higher than Michelle on the technical marks (slightly) in the LP at the 2001 Worlds. Granted that makes bartek's arguments faulty to begin with as figure skating is not just about the technical side. As bartek is a bigtime Miki Ando backer you can already tell the technical side is all that would be important to this poster though.


    In fairness I can sort of see the point of a few people. I think Michelle Kwan is still excellent technically, one of the best in the World, and that combined with her World best artistry and great competitive spirit and reputation accumulated over the years (I dont even mind skaters getting reputation marks as IMO they all earn that reputation) resulted in her historic career with 5 World titles, 9 World medals, 9 U.S titles, and all her other achievements. However when you break it down closer if results were determined only by technical marks Michelle would have won only 1 of her 5 Worlds:

    1996- Would have won.

    1997- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Tara and Irina, 5th in the short behind Czako, and in fact 4th overall it appears.

    1998- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Irina and Maria, and probably 2nd to Irina overall even with Irina missing her combination and having a fall in the LP as well.

    2000- Would have been 2nd in the LP behind Irina (I disagreed as Irina had only 6 triples, a big pop open, no triple-triple try, and her 2nd triple lutz might have been 2 footed, while Michelle had a spectacular clear 7 triple with a triple-triple program, but Irina did slightly win the tech. score by the judges).

    2001- Would have been 2nd to Irina.

    2003- Would have been 2nd to Sokolova (I disagree slightly with the judges here too as Sokolova's non jump tech. elements are pretty average, and dont compare to Slutskaya's or Kwan's, but in the judges eyes she won the tech. mark).

    As for some of her other World medals:

    1999- Would have been 4th behind Butyrskaya, Soldatova, and Malinina in the LP. Not sure of her SP placing, but probably down in about 8th.

    2004- Would have been 3rd in LP behind Arakawa and Ando and out of medals overall.


    So while that is in a way irrelevant as her artistic marks combined with the (most of the time) still very strong technical marks carried her to deserved finishes on each occasion, I can see the point how technically she was not as strong relatively speaking to the greatest.

    Someone like Yu Na Kim in each GP final, Worlds, or Olympics, she won, did convincingly win both the combined technical and artistic mark.

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