View Poll Results: Should Cinquanta Stand Down And Make Way For A New President?

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  • Yes

    151 82.07%
  • No

    13 7.07%
  • Don't Know/No Opinion On The Matter/Unsure

    20 10.87%
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  1. #61

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    Dancing with the Stars may have been a poor example, but shows like SYTYCD do expose the general public to a variety of dance genres and there are truly talented dancers competing on said shows. So I think Wood's point still has some validity.
    My job requires me to be a juggler, but that does not mean that I enjoy working with clowns.

  2. #62

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    And nobody needs to understand what all the numbers, protocols, etc. mean if they don't want to go into it. All a casual viewer sees is the total score. The higher total score wins. It's plain, simple and transparent.
    But the problem is, there are no more casual viewers.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    But the problem is, there are no more casual viewers.
    Then those that have graduated from the casual viewer class, wishing to be expert and understand what we judges must learn, it will be important to download IJS detail sheets. Then learn how to interpret them. When we come off a large IJS catagory, seldom do we know where we placed a large group of skaters. If you were to sneak into a off duty judges room you would see many judges pouring over the records book to see the detailed results.

    Perhaps it would help Friedlander work through some issues also.
    Morry Stillwell

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morry Stillwell View Post
    Then those that have graduated from the casual viewer class, wishing to be expert and understand what we judges must learn, it will be important to download IJS detail sheets. Then learn how to interpret them.
    I think that is the problem in a nutshell.

    For a participatory sport the IJS is good. For a spectator sport it is bad. Not many spectators will be interested in "graduating to the expert class and learning what professional judges must learn."

    The ISU has made its choice and seems content to live with the consequences. So be it.

  5. #65

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    The article is full of bias. It is clear that Chan is used as an anti-COP whipping boy for her own agenda. Never mind if there are others who have fallen and win medals too. And of course, it’s easier to blame the rules rather than understanding and changing one’s training methods.

    For those who have constantly posted that they find vibrators non-satisfying, we do get it. We are well aware of your seeexual preferences. Please do spare us the details of frequency, type and size as we have no desire to know more unless in cohort with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    But the problem is, there are no more casual viewers.
    Not true. Speak for yourself.
    Last edited by spikydurian; 07-02-2012 at 05:44 AM. Reason: additional posts

  6. #66

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    I never understood the argument that people don't watch skating because the IJS is too complicated for casual viewers to follow. At the most basic level, it's higher score wins; that's very easy math. If you want to learn more, there are plenty of resources - there's a lot to criticize the ISU for, but they make this information readily available and easy to find. That's not different than some of the most popular American sports: you can enjoy a football game without knowing everything the refs and players know, or you can geek out to your heart's content and really get into the strategy and the statistics. You can watch baseball for fun even if you don't want to read a box score (let alone understand the more advanced statistics) or learn how to identify pitches. And although the refs/umpires don't determine the outcome to the same degree as do skating judges, they can certainly affect it (e.g. overlarge or too small strike zone, decisions on close calls, penalties etc.).

    It's not quite the same audience, but I don't think skating's decreasing popularity in the US is because oh noes, math is hard/rules are hard to follow. More like, it's a niche sport that had a (rather brief) surge in popularity, then people moved on the other things and the media market became increasingly fragmented. That downward trend began even before the IJS came in, and contrary to what Ms. Friedlander seems to suggest, it is not something universal.

  7. #67
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    nevermind. I was being repetitive
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    I don't know a single skater or coach who would prefer to return to the previous judging system. Not one.
    I think I read the Vandercorkells being quoted that they didn't like IJS, but that says it all really innit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post

    It's not quite the same audience, but I don't think skating's decreasing popularity in the US is because oh noes, math is hard/rules are hard to follow. More like, it's a niche sport that had a (rather brief) surge in popularity, then people moved on the other things and the media market became increasingly fragmented. That downward trend began even before the IJS came in, and contrary to what Ms. Friedlander seems to suggest, it is not something universal.
    This.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Dred View Post
    I noticed from your reply to Friedlander that you said you were involved as a judge and administrator in Australia. Knowing that a lot of judges and administrators happen to be ex-competitive skaters, I googled your name to see whether you were as well. That came up. I'm very impressed, there were some good moves in that program
    OMG Aussie Willie is a girl??!!

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItalianFan View Post
    OMG Aussie Willie is a girl??!!
    Not sure why, I also always imagined it to be a male.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I never understood the argument that people don't watch skating because the IJS is too complicated for casual viewers to follow. At the most basic level, it's higher score wins; that's very easy math. If you want to learn more, there are plenty of resources - there's a lot to criticize the ISU for, but they make this information readily available and easy to find. That's not different than some of the most popular American sports: you can enjoy a football game without knowing everything the refs and players know, or you can geek out to your heart's content and really get into the strategy and the statistics. You can watch baseball for fun even if you don't want to read a box score (let alone understand the more advanced statistics) or learn how to identify pitches. And although the refs/umpires don't determine the outcome to the same degree as do skating judges, they can certainly affect it (e.g. overlarge or too small strike zone, decisions on close calls, penalties etc.).

    It's not quite the same audience, but I don't think skating's decreasing popularity in the US is because oh noes, math is hard/rules are hard to follow. More like, it's a niche sport that had a (rather brief) surge in popularity, then people moved on the other things and the media market became increasingly fragmented. That downward trend began even before the IJS came in, and contrary to what Ms. Friedlander seems to suggest, it is not something universal.
    Great post!

    Still, I find the self-congratulatory attitude of the ISU and the skating establishment to be a little bIt patronizing and annoying. The skaters like the IJS (check), skater's parents like the IJS (check), coaches, members of the ISU technical committee, and officials in national skating federations like the IJS (check, check, check). Everyone likes the IJS except the people.

    So if you are a "people" and are not moved or inspired by the programs and performances that the IJS encourages and requires, skating insiders respond: "The only reason you don't like it is your own ignorance. If you were as smart as we are, you would love us as much as we love ourselves."

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Great post!

    Still, I find the self-congratulatory attitude of the ISU and the skating establishment to be a little bIt patronizing and annoying. The skaters like the IJS (check), skater's parents like the IJS (check), coaches, members of the ISU technical committee, and officials in national skating federations like the IJS (check, check, check). Everyone likes the IJS except the people.

    So if you are a "people" and are not moved or inspired by the programs and performances that the IJS encourages and requires, skating insiders respond: "The only reason you don't like it is your own ignorance. If you were as smart as we are, you would love us as much as we love ourselves."
    I agree that telling people "you should like it because we do" isn't a sound marketing strategy. But it is certainly possible to articulate why experts like the IJS and why certain skaters do well under it without being condescending. The system isn't that difficult to understand, at least at a basic level, and I don't think skating is struggling in the US because the IJS is too complex for casual fans to understand. I've watched skating events - on TV and even live - with friends who don't follow the sport, who wouldn't even know who Michelle Kwan is, and we're all from a non-skating country so not that many opportunities to be exposed to skating at any level. It didn't take them long to figure out what was going on and who was skating well. As with almost any sport, all it takes is someone to explain the basics, and from what I've seen and heard, American commentators have not done a great job of this.

    But in the end, either people will want to learn more or they won't, and it can't be forced. The ISU can only do so much to make its product accessible and marketable, especially as it is dealing with a vastly different media market than the one that existed during skating's golden years. And there will always be those who believe that things were better in the past. I mean, look at baseball: interleague has been around longer than the IJS, and plenty of people still hate it (and rightly so, interleague sucks). Same with the DH. I'm sure some people will complain about college football going to a mini-playoff system. You can't please everyone.

  13. #73

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    Did you remember media wars when competitions was hold under old system? I remember. And remermber 2002 OG too.
    I dont want support ISU, but dont like when people, who didnt know nothing anout sport, try to talk from all the World
    Just feel sad, becasue Monica thinking she is "jourmalist".

  14. #74
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    Well, there are two approaches to marketing. You can offer a product and then try to make people like it or you can try to find out what people like and then offer it.

    I agree with post 66 that the main reason for the general decline of interesting in figure skating in most of the world is...well, nothing really. Cultural drift. Changing tastes in entertainment.

    I was watching TV with some friends and for some reason a rerun of an old production of "Romeo and Juliet on Ice," with Toller Cranston as Mercurio. was on. The reaction? Why "on ice?"

    Amateur skating never commanded a big audience. But in 1950 the highest paid actress in Hollywood was Sonia Henie (who couldn't act a lick). From the 1940s through the 1970s shows like Ice Follies and Ice Capades were big deals. Later Champions on Ice and Stars on Ice ran tours with with 80 stops.

    So I would say that professional skating entertainments is where the sport has essentially disappeared from the landscape. Maybe it is unfair to put the burden on competitive skating to make it popular again.

  15. #75
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    Mathman, these are such important points. Henie's movies and professional ice shows were exceedingly popular during the time when amateur/competitive skating wasn't televised, and people went to see "The Olympic Guy" that they had only heard of or possible have seen news clips of in those shows.

    The Henie movies came right out of the Busby Berkeley-Goldwyn Follies movies and their ilk. (George Balanchine made quite a living choreographing for Hollywood and suggesting camera angles for dance during that time.)

    As much as I waited for "The Olympics people" and their solos with jumps during my family's yearly pilgrimage to Madison Square Garden for Ice Capades, it was the people dressed as characters or objects and the Carmen Miranda chorus lines that kept most of the audience happy.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 07-03-2012 at 02:18 AM.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Just feel sad, because Monica thinking she is "jourmalist".
    I think the part about why she doesn't like the CoP is legitimate journalism, although not everyone will agree with her position.

    But I think she went off the mark when she called the results of 2012 Worlds a "scandal." Takahashi gave a crowd-pleasing performance. But Chan displayed marvelous skills and rolled up the points.

    As for the dance competition, Davis and White have enthusiastic fans, as do Virtue and Moir. It is not a "scandal" if one team finishes first and the other second.

    I used to think that the CoP should be adjusted to give higher weight to the aspects of a performance that the audience most appreciates. That way everyone is happy. But lately the criticism of the CoP has swung around the other way. Now people complain that the judges are putting too much emphasis on the Program Components, over-rewarding subjective factors like musicality and choreography. So it is kind of a no-win situation for the ISU.

  17. #77
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    I so agree with you Mathman.

    For some its a scandal if the teams/skaters they dont want to win actually win.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    I used to think that the CoP should be adjusted to give higher weight to the aspects of a performance that the audience most appreciates. That way everyone is happy. But lately the criticism of the CoP has swung around the other way. Now people complain that the judges are putting too much emphasis on the Program Components, over-rewarding subjective factors like musicality and choreography. So it is kind of a no-win situation for the ISU.
    There have been complaints from the beginning of CoP that components are used 1. Like ordinals 2. Inappropriately 3. Without variation 4. Within the corridor and 5. To prop up skaters on reputation.

    The ISU has removed the number of technical elements, introduced non-leveled choreographic elements, changed the GOE scales, and made levels more difficult to attain, all of which lower the technical score. There have been offsets over the years -- the roller coaster of changing the base for quads and triples and, after a year or two of actually calling under-rotations, codifying the 70% values -- but not enough to offset the balance completely. The absolute weights for PCS haven't changed.

    The biggest change in emphasis was when the judges were told not to cap the PCS scores, and we've seen more 9's and 10's among the top competitors, especially in ice dance.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 07-03-2012 at 02:08 AM.
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  19. #79
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    If you want the "publique general" to understand and follow the IJS, then...wait for it...

    Why not display each competitor's scoring protocal either DURING or at least JUST AFTER each program, with all the TES elements described fully - not with the acronyms - and with possible values AND actual judged values, including GOEs, and then PCS?

    Integrate the protocol availability with the broadcasts as each skater competes, and reference a link to a web area with complete protocols for skaters who have competed so far, so that viewers, if they care to, can track all scores via the web in real time).

    Display them immediately in the arena as well.

    Take away judging anonymity.

    THAT is how scoring was done for each skater under modern 6.0 to the extent that scores were calculated - if you want an "apples to apples" comparison of 6.0 vs. IJS. You saw all scores and who gave what after each skater (until 2002). The only thing that wasn't display fully were ordinals by judge, and they should have been.

    And - if you argue that the IJS scoring protocols are too complicated to do such reporting and displays - well, that reinforces many people's complaints about IJS and its ability to be understood easily, doesn't it?

    The only way IMHO that the IJS is going to be really understood beyond the small coterie of insiders (judges, skaters and "fanatics" like some of us) is to put it out there with every major competition so that everyone has a chance to be educated on exactly how it works.
    Last edited by VALuvsMKwan; 07-02-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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  20. #80
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    I think what would be most helpful is, during Kiss and Cry, to show the top three skaters to date, with last name and score, so that the number that's flashed on the screen for the current skater has a context. I don't think most people care about the details.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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