Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 39 of 39
  1. #21
    Fetalized since 1998
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Waving my Adam banner
    Posts
    2,519
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    9501
    Regardless of how she placed at 06 Worlds, she went and I give her props for that. She was always a "spot" earner from 02 on.

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,795
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1805
    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Even had she won all that's nats titles Kwan supposedly kept her from, she still splatted at all of them, and she never could wins worlds, with Kwan above or below her, or not even in attendance, so "great" is a stretch IMHO. I'm actually surprised she managed the one nat title she did get. I predicted kimmie to win 06 nats, but she postponed that win till worlds.
    I agree.

    Sasha's resume with Kwan

    1 US title
    4 silver
    1 bronze

    2 world silver medals
    1 bronze world medal

    Olympic Silver Medalist

    Sasha's resume if MK retired after 2002

    3 time US champion
    3 silver

    2 world silver medals
    2 bronze medals

    Olympic Silver medalist


    So she would have two more US titles and another world bronze medal if Michelle had retired in 2002. Obviously great accomplishments but she still would not be seen as some great champion. Even if you eliminate Michelle all together it increases her national titles to 5 but she still has zero world or Olympic Championships. She would, however, have another Olympic medal (bronze) and another bronze for worlds. 5 time US champion would be impressive though.

    I wish she would have stayed after 2006. She would have wiped the floor with everyone at nationals and I am sure could have mustered top 5 at worlds between 2007-2009....although in 2008 she would have had to place 3rd or better to get the three spots because Kimmie would not have gone. So idk if we would have had three spots even with Sasha on the 2008 US team. I just went totally OT lol but its interesting to think about.

    I do really enjoy watching her skate and wish we had a star like her now.
    Last edited by UGG; 07-04-2012 at 03:58 PM.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,882
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    The problem with saying so-and-so would have this title or that medal if AB skater was not present is that you can't always guarantee that performances would be the same or even similar otherwise (the "X-Factor" as I call it). Especially if the skater wouldn't have been replaced- wait times between groups might be different.

    If Cohen did not have Kwan at 2003, 2004, 2005 nationals, who's to say she would have skated the same? Perhaps without Kwan around to push her further, she would have stagnated and slipped. Or, conversely, she may have received more crowd support and that may have enabled her to get "in the zone". I bet if Cohen had skipped 2006 Worlds, people would have assumed she would have won if she did go. Well, look what happened when she went.

    Ditto to her staying after 2006. I truly think she was burned out after Torino and peaked as a skater during the 2003-2006 quad. It would have been downhill for her from that point on, and I don't think she would have had a better result than Meissner in 2007. When she came back in 2010, she seemed ok in the short program but was clearly undertrained and underprepared for the free skate. It was barely a month at that point until the ladies' FS in Vancouver and there is no way she would have developed enough stamina to get through an FS by then, especially at the level required to medal given how stiff the competition was.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,795
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1805
    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    The problem with saying so-and-so would have this title or that medal if AB skater was not present is that you can't always guarantee that performances would be the same or even similar otherwise (the "X-Factor" as I call it). Especially if the skater wouldn't have been replaced- wait times between groups might be different.

    If Cohen did not have Kwan at 2003, 2004, 2005 nationals, who's to say she would have skated the same? Perhaps without Kwan around to push her further, she would have stagnated and slipped. Or, conversely, she may have received more crowd support and that may have enabled her to get "in the zone". I bet if Cohen had skipped 2006 Worlds, people would have assumed she would have won if she did go. Well, look what happened when she went.

    Ditto to her staying after 2006. I truly think she was burned out after Torino and peaked as a skater during the 2003-2006 quad. It would have been downhill for her from that point on, and I don't think she would have had a better result than Meissner in 2007. When she came back in 2010, she seemed ok in the short program but was clearly undertrained and underprepared for the free skate. It was barely a month at that point until the ladies' FS in Vancouver and there is no way she would have developed enough stamina to get through an FS by then, especially at the level required to medal given how stiff the competition was.
    I know-but i think its safe to assume she would have won nationals in 2004 and 2005 without Michelle there. Otherwise you are talking Jenny Kirk as the 2004 US champion and Kimmie Meissner as the 2005 US champion-a year before the Olympics. I get your point though because you used a great example with 2006 worlds.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,882
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    The pressure on her in 2004 and 2005 would also have been greater since she would then be the overwhelming favorite. That immediately changes the dynamic of the entire competition. And don't forget the others too. Would Meissner have gone for the 3A in 2005 without MK? But I can understand your point since Kirk was clearly a step down (maybe even 2 steps down) from where Cohen was, even if the latter had an off-night. So even in the case that Cohen was worse, it might have still been enough for the judges to hand her the win (think Czisny in 2009).

    Another good example of the X-Factor just happened this year, with Ashley Wagner winning 4CCs, edging Mao Asada. If, say, she was 3rd at Nationals but still won 4CCs, everyone would have been crying out that she should have gone to worlds, and retrospectively saying that if she went, we would have had a world medalist or even a world champ. Well guess what- Wagner DID go to worlds but ended up "a lowly" 4th. (In perspective, though, that's ties as the best result for the women in 5 years, so it's actually good.)

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    On a magic planet with Meryl and Charlie
    Posts
    6,942
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    16704
    Another X factor is injury.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,339
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    47055
    Recent interview with Sasha Cohen - apologies if it has already been posted previously

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    126
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Considering there's been no one like Kwan before or since, if Sasha had competed at any other time in history she would have won multiple nationals and we would be calling her "great" instead of "splatfest". There were so many times that it was only Kwan keeping her from the top. I think what she accomplished, in that period of time, was really extraordinairy.

    I do wish Sasha would have stuck around a little longer after Kwan retired, because there was really no one Sasha couldn't have beaten. 06 World's was an anomaly IMO. There's only two big ones where Sasha wasn't competing against Kwan. Think of what she could have done if she kept going. For some reason, Sasha got stars in her eyes about becoming an actress, rather than striking while the iron was hot with skating.
    Sasha would have been owned by the young jumpers like Kim, Asada, and even Ando had she skayed around. She couldnt even win against not only Kwan but Slutskaya who was just a jumper, and Arakawa who was inconsistent and not a big judges favorite even when she skated well. It would have only been much harder to win against people like Kim and Asada who were techinically at a much higher level than Sasha, had consistency, and had the artistry as well, and stronger basics (edge, flow, speed) than Sasha.


    As others have said Kwan didnt keep Sasha from much. A couple more U.S titles, big deal. No World titles still, maybe an Olympic medal if she still beats Suguri from the final group in 2002. I dont think it is even as much as people are saying since if Kwan wasnt around Hughes would solidified herself as #1 in status firmly and been given the 2002, and maybe 2000 titles, instead of Sasha. So that leaves 2004, 2005, and 2006, but Meissner could have challenged her in both the latter years, and since Sasha couldnt win a Worlds even without Michelle, and her jumping was her weakness against people like Slutskaya, Arakawa, and even Suguri, the USFSA might have pushed more support on Meissner by then.


    Sasha basically skated at 3 big events without Michelle in a way. 2006 Olympics, 2006 Worlds, and 2005 Worlds where Kwan was never a factor for gold or silver right from the start, and Sasha skated well for once, but still couldnt skate well enough to beat someone else. 2004 Worlds too Kwan had no hope whatsoever of the gold medal entering the LP and Sasha still blew it.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,194
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    I know-but i think its safe to assume she would have won nationals in 2004 and 2005 without Michelle there. Otherwise you are talking Jenny Kirk as the 2004 US champion and Kimmie Meissner as the 2005 US champion-a year before the Olympics.
    Well the US has recently had Czisny as a controversial two-time US champion and Flatt was national champion going into the Olympics. I'll take Kirk and Meissner any day of the century.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    218
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Well the US has recently had Czisny as a controversial two-time US champion and Flatt was national champion going into the Olympics. I'll take Kirk and Meissner any day of the century.
    Flatt is a much better skater than Kirk. Kirks best Worlds was a 15th or something. Flatt was 5th at Worlds and 7th at the Olympics which would have been 4th without two wrong downgrades. Czisny is also a much better skater than Kirk, and in terms of pure skating ability anyway better than Meissner.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    218
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Even had she won all that's nats titles Kwan supposedly kept her from, she still splatted at all of them, and she never could wins worlds, with Kwan above or below her, or not even in attendance, so "great" is a stretch IMHO. I'm actually surprised she managed the one nat title she did get. I predicted kimmie to win 06 nats, but she postponed that win till worlds.
    You cant tell what it would have done for Cohen's own confidence and momentum to be U.S #1 and not have the shadow over her head that if Kwan skates cleanly she will never win a big event. That affects your confidence and your own thought process. Then people get mad at her for not winning events, even ones where Kwan was on and unbeatable, and it affects her event to event, year to year, even when Kwan was less of a factor in later years.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,194
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Flatt is a much better skater than Kirk.
    Not to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Kirks best Worlds was a 15th or something. Flatt was 5th at Worlds and 7th at the Olympics which would have been 4th without two wrong downgrades.
    That may make Flatt a better competitor but not a better skater. Why do so many people think results = skating quality?
    Like I said, I'll take Kirk or Meissner any day.

    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    Czisny is also a much better skater than Kirk, and in terms of pure skating ability anyway better than Meissner.
    In your opinion. I think Meissner was a much better overall skater than Czisny. Spins and flexibility aren't everything.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    126
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Kirk an impressive skater, ROTFL!!! Tiny and hideous jumps with awful technique, so so spins, slow and boring skating. No she is not better than anyone mentioned this thread. Atleast Flatt could do 7 triples consistently and had decent quality jumps, and a few somewhat interesting programs. Czisny's spins and spirals are worth more than Kirk's whole skating even if she did all doubles.

    As for Meissner the only thing her skating had was badly cheated 3-3s and when they started getting called her career was over, but she did win a Worlds so guess that makes her the best of that little group by default.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,194
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by chanunderrated View Post
    but she did win a Worlds so guess that makes her the best of that little group by default.
    I hadn't realized that was a criteria for judging the best skater. I change my mind. Michelle Kwan is not a better skater than Sarah Hughes. Sarah won the Olympics and Michelle didn't so that makes Sarah better. I don't know why I didn't see that all these years.

    On second thought, neither skater ever completed a triple axel in competition so viva Ludmila Nelidina!

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,583
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Maofan7 View Post
    As a result of her success in the Grand Prix events, she qualified for the final and won, beating world champion, Irina Slutskaya into 2nd. Viktoria Volchkova, who had beaten her at the Cup of Russia, placed 3rd. Rather bizarrely, each skater performed 1 short program, followed by 2 long programs in this competition.....
    What's the story with this?

    I can't believe that Sasha went from how she skated as a 9 year old in that video (doing only singles and mediocre skating), to getting 2nd at Novice sectionals within 3-4 years. That is pretty amazing.
    Last edited by leafygreens; 05-01-2013 at 04:35 PM.

  16. #36

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5,339
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    47055

  17. #37
    Recovering from the Olys
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    28,304
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    16759
    This Sasha "Alex" Cohen thread has links to other videos as well as recent articles and photos: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3823782
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    126
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I hadn't realized that was a criteria for judging the best skater. I change my mind. Michelle Kwan is not a better skater than Sarah Hughes. Sarah won the Olympics and Michelle didn't so that makes Sarah better. I don't know why I didn't see that all these years.

    On second thought, neither skater ever completed a triple axel in competition so viva Ludmila Nelidina!
    Your example does not ring effective. Yes the Olympics are the biggest event, and it is why say Yu Na Kim is considered better than Kwan these days, but Kwan has won 5 Worlds and 5 Worlds >>> 1 Olympics + 0 Worlds, not to mention the many other achievements of Kwan.

    In the case of Meissner winning Worlds is so much more of a feat than any of those others achieved, that yes that alone can make her the best. That plus her 2nd best Worlds result (4th) is still better than anyone elses you named best result. Why are you arguing, I am agreeing with you on the part of you saying Meissner was the best of those people so you should be happy. Kirk on the other hand, pleeeasse!

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    “It is far more important to have a good judge than a possible conflict of interest." - Ottavio Cinquanta
    Posts
    1,583
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    What's the story with this?
    I answered my own question on Wikipedia:
    In the 2002–2003 season, competitors at the Grand Prix Final were to perform a short program, followed by two free skating or free dance programs. This was implemented because of television coverage. Ottavio Cinquanta envisioned that the skaters would perform two new free skating programs for the season at the final and this would appeal to and help attract viewers. Instead, most skaters went back to an old free skate program for one of the free skates. Due to the failure of this plan, the second free skate/dance was eventually removed from the Grand Prix Final.
    This seems pretty stupid. I don't know what skater would come up with a new FP that has not been competed before just for the GPF.
    Last edited by leafygreens; 05-03-2013 at 02:01 AM.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •