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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by RUKen View Post
    The skaters who are competitive for medals at the World Championships pace themselves throughout the skating season so that they peak at Worlds. The Grand Prix Final is three months before Worlds when the skaters are still building up their programs, so it is hardly a "best of the best" event.
    I should have made that more clear and explained I was referring to the level of the skaters competing. For the most part a slightly off-peak Kostner, Takahashi, etc will still present a very high standard of skating. The way the ISU wants to limit Worlds to the top 18 skaters (or thereabouts), is also turning the event into a second GPF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.
    I can't speak for all of these, but for the record, Tamar Katz lived in Israel for an extended portion of her childhood. I mean, yeah, her reason for competing for Israel is a reason you'd probably dislike (she wanted to circumvent the US testing structure and she lived in Israel), but still--she is quite familiar with the country she represented!

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I think as long as the skaters who hop citizenship do make an effort to develop the sport in the country they adopt, it is actually a good thing. If they never travel to the country at all, and do nothing to help others, then I am against the practice. But honestly, having an adopted citizen who can help collect supplies, who can teach workshops, and who can give the country someone to cheer for (I think Amanda Evora said she never realized how much the Philippines was behind her in the Olympics, despite her skating for the US) really does support skating development.
    Yes. Well, it all sounds great in theory. In practice those skaters can't be bothered flying half a way across the globe to give a workshop actually, to whom? The local kids don't necessarily speak English, the `star' doesn't speak the local language. The local kids will not bother attempting to land a 2T when they know they will never participate a single event anyway.

    Again, all those points above are great in theory, but in practice there are several `federations' with American/Russian skaters only. If this rule will eliminate those `federations' am all for it.

  4. #104
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    Also, sorry for the double post, but I'm not into the concept of a minimum technical requirement (especially for JW!). I don't mind a minimum score (TES and PCS), but I mind the concept of a minimum tech score because it suggests that there's only one component to skating. It completely ignores a skater with strong artistic inclinations in favor of one who can jump or whatever, with zero regards towards the fact that the artistic skater perhaps had the higher overall score.

    A full-score minimum is something I'd agree with, maybe. But never at JW!

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    A full-score minimum is something I'd agree with, maybe. But never at JW!
    What about the infamous Indian pair on the JGP? I wouldn't blame other coaches and teams if they'd rather not be on the same warm-up ice as someone who is a safety risk for the other skaters entered into an event. I am open to debating TES vs PCS -and especially what the requirements should be, but I see nothing wrong with having some min requirements. Problem is, the current Senior requirements for Worlds are anything but minimal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSV0Ei8GlsU

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.
    You are absolutely correct, if skaters are not good enough they don't deserve be there. If only a few counties are represented so be it. 51 Ladies competing at last year’s World was really over the top. I can see why the ISU would want to trim the fat. They shouldn't have even bothered with the preliminary round. They shouldn't have got to go at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    Unfortunately you are not in the minority, at least on this forum. But it shows how bad it is to this sport, when even the "Fans" want to ban the skaters from competing, and these comments gives the ISU even more support for there damaging rules and ideas. Its just sad.

    If i would be a skater from a small federation, i would have no motivation to continue, because its just impossible to make this high minimum score, and its not the same to compete at a senior B, which nobody wants to watch, or even at Euros/4CC. The World Championships are completely different.
    I don't see it as fans or even the ISU and 'banning' skaters. Encouraging skaters should be done at the local level not from the top down from the bottom up. It’s not up to the ISU to bring skaters into local rinks and encourage them to skate, work hard and get better. I agree with the statement about who wants to watch someone (on a major network) who falls on a 2T? I see kids at my local rink who can do a 2T does that mean they should be allowed to go to Worlds? There needs to be some standard of excellence set in place.

    People in other threads already discuss how Olympic medalist should have never won and people want sub-par skaters to compete?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    Also, sorry for the double post, but I'm not into the concept of a minimum technical requirement (especially for JW!). I don't mind a minimum score (TES and PCS), but I mind the concept of a minimum tech score because it suggests that there's only one component to skating. It completely ignores a skater with strong artistic inclinations in favor of one who can jump or whatever, with zero regards towards the fact that the artistic skater perhaps had the higher overall score.
    There is no equivalent of the technical panel for PCS or a separate judging panel for PCS. I think the reliance on TES is to emphasize the "athletic" side, which is considered more objective, especially WRT the Olympics, and it puts the criteria I partially in the hands that the ISU, rather than the Federations control. I think it's also a tacit way of admitting that PCS judging is inadequate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Yes. Well, it all sounds great in theory. In practice those skaters can't be bothered flying half a way across the globe to give a workshop actually, to whom? The local kids don't necessarily speak English, the `star' doesn't speak the local language. The local kids will not bother attempting to land a 2T when they know they will never participate a single event anyway.
    A lot of skating is demonstrated physically, by example, like ballet, and language is less of an issue. There's often a group effect in workshops, where one person who gets it explains to the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Again, all those points above are great in theory, but in practice there are several `federations' with American/Russian skaters only. If this rule will eliminate those `federations' am all for it.
    Don't the Russian born skaters live in Israel? The same can't be said for many of the American skaters who've skated for other countries. If a Russian skater's family lived in Uzbekistan, why shouldn't that skater skate for Uzbekistan? Many skaters train in a country they don't live in, so training in Russia or the US isn't really meaningful.

    If a country doesn't have rinks and grassroots skating programs/a tradition of sending sickly kids to a rink, or decides like China to invest in a sport, training will be imported and there will be expat skaters.

    The old minimum scores knocked out a bunch of the low-level American skaters with family ties to small Federations.*

    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Isn't it 24 for singles, 19 for dance and 16 for pairs?
    Yes, sorry, 24 skaters, but from about 18 nations, since some have multiple entries, and they can hardly be called developing. There are as many single-entry spots earned at the Olympic qualifier as there are at the previous Worlds.

    Of the countries that qualify one skater at worlds, how many of those are truly developing? When Poykio was placing 12th at Worlds, earning one spot, there were two or three Finnish women in the top 10 at Euros. Finland wouldn't be considered a developing nation in singles.

    It's great that Spain has Javier Raya, but for every Spain, there's Georgia, which has tossed back Olympic, Worlds, and European slots, because there's no one to follow Gedevanishvili. There's a big difference between a developing nation, like Ireland, a nation that has an exceptional skater -- from more-or-less competitive like McCorkell to a phenom like Kim -- and a nation that has periods of great skaters and then goes fallow, like the British men.

    The chances for a truly developing nation to get a spot at the Olympics was very low even before there was a minimum score.


    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    There is a huge difference between the minimum score that was set two years ago and the new one for Worlds. It is going to have a devastating effect on the elite skating programmes of developing figure skating nations.
    Where are the elite figure skating programs in developing figure skating nations? In the 2003 Euros Program there was an article about an ISU program to help smaller European Federations develop their programs, and that was nearly a decade ago, with not many individual results to show for it. The new pairs and dance programs are targeted to where there is infrastructure and some tradition. While critical mass, government commitment and the ability to select from a great population, and/or wealth (personal or federation) don't guarantee success -- see Canadian Ladies, Chinese Ladies since Chen Lu, or Tobias -- they have been the dominant success factors that developing skating nations don't have.

    The developing skating nations are there to pay dues and vote, and if there's a phenom like Kim who can create a large and lucrative market, that's great, but I don't see the ISU betting on Ireland or Thailand, although I'm surprised they haven't targeted Hong Kong.

    When they had the figure skating TV money to develop figure skating, the ISU spent it to develop speed skating.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post

    The developing skating nations are there to pay dues and vote, and if there's a phenom like Kim who can create a large and lucrative market, that's great, but I don't see the ISU betting on Ireland or Thailand, although I'm surprised they haven't targeted Hong Kong.
    So it's a big feck off and shut up? Charming.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    So it's a big feck off and shut up? Charming.
    If the developing nations can't do anything with their votes that the Council can't undermine, then I don't understand why they bother.

    Pretty much everything the Council has decided or pushed through Congress has pointed to turning Worlds into an annual version of the Olympics.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Don't the Russian born skaters live in Israel? The same can't be said for many of the American skaters who've skated for other countries. If a Russian skater's family lived in Uzbekistan, why shouldn't that skater skate for Uzbekistan? Many skaters train in a country they don't live in, so training in Russia or the US isn't really meaningful.
    It's not all about Israel, you know.

    Did Tatiana Malinina and Roman Skorniakov ever actually live in Uzbekistan? Certainly, in the later stages of their careers, they were living in the United States.

    Quite a few Russians have represented Azerbaijan without actually living there.

    I'm not sure that Sergey Davydov or Julia Soldatova ever lived in Belarus. She might have, but I think he never did.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Yes. Well, it all sounds great in theory. In practice those skaters can't be bothered flying half a way across the globe to give a workshop actually, to whom? The local kids don't necessarily speak English, the `star' doesn't speak the local language. The local kids will not bother attempting to land a 2T when they know they will never participate a single event anyway.

    Again, all those points above are great in theory, but in practice there are several `federations' with American/Russian skaters only. If this rule will eliminate those `federations' am all for it.
    It's all very nice, but the "fake Azerbajdzhanis" are not the target group of this rule. Moreover, the "Americans/Russians" are more likely to make the required minimum than the "local kids", so if anything, it would make more sense to enter the rent-a-Russian program in order to have any chance of having a skater at Worlds.

    European countries are going to be the first to take the blow, and with rare exception, they actually have locals representing them, all around from UK to Poland.
    In Soviet Russia, the skaters lobbychick YOU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrey aka Pushkin View Post
    It's all very nice, but the "fake Azerbajdzhanis" are not the target group of this rule. Moreover, the "Americans/Russians" are more likely to make the required minimum than the "local kids", so if anything, it would make more sense to enter the rent-a-Russian program in order to have any chance of having a skater at Worlds.
    Aren't judging positions based on the results of their skaters? That would give a Federation more incentive to use an import than a local, even if there are issues with citizenship for the Olympics.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Aren't judging positions based on the results of their skaters? That would give a Federation more incentive to use an import than a local, even if there are issues with citizenship for the Olympics.
    I don't think so, but I would think that having a skater in the competition is a requirement. But then again, I might be wrong, and then again, if a country doesn't have a competitor, I think its interest in having a judge would be rather secondary.
    In Soviet Russia, the skaters lobbychick YOU.

  14. #114
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    I think some of the nations, especially ones where influential judges switched Federations, have more of an interest in their judges and officials than their skaters.

    ETA: If any nation with an entry could have a judge at Worlds, there are going to be out-of-work judges from nations whose skaters don't qualify.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 06-29-2012 at 10:39 PM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    A lot of skating is demonstrated physically, by example, like ballet, and language is less of an issue. There's often a group effect in workshops, where one person who gets it explains to the others.
    Sure. That is assuming those skaters would bother getting to tshoe countries and assuming there is an ice rink

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Don't the Russian born skaters live in Israel?
    Some. Zaretskis and Krasnopolski are. I doubt Bychenko spent more than a week of his life in Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The same can't be said for many of the American skaters who've skated for other countries. If a Russian skater's family lived in Uzbekistan, why shouldn't that skater skate for Uzbekistan? Many skaters train in a country they don't live in, so training in Russia or the US isn't really meaningful.
    No. But representing another country because you can't make it through your local rink competition without ever being to that country - that, I think, is wrong. I.e. taking Israel - am all for skaters like Katz or Krasnopolski representing Israel, am very much against skaters like Bychenko or Syken.
    And seriously, Azerbaidzhan? Zlobina? Sitnikov? Andreev? That American skater whose name I forgot... Give me a break...

  16. #116
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    May I ask someone who is knowledgable, as to, if Kim yuna wants to competes at 2013 World, will she have to participate in GPs, or senior Bs? (or 4cc)

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    Joelle Forte?

    From Rule 109 in the ISU Constitution:
    The Council may also reject an application from a Member for a permission that a Skater who has or had foreign citizenship may compete for that Member, although the formalities and requirements stated in this Rule have been met, if in the opinion of the Council granting such application would be contrary to the purpose and spirit of Rule. (e.g. in case that a Member tries to “import” several athletes with foreign citizenship, in particular when such athletes should form a new national team of such Member or its substantial part);
    This was added to the 2010 Constitution, and I always think of it as the Azerbaijan Rule. I thought there was some connection to Azerbaijan that either Zlobina or Sitnikov or the family of at least one had to be able to change federations, but they may have applied before June 2010, when Congress accepted the change.

    It doesn't happen that often, but there are instances of not being competitive in a/one home country and becoming very successful for another. Dianne de Leeuw grew up in California, but because she had Dutch citizenship, she was able to skip the entire qualifying process to become Dutch, European, and World champion and Olympic silver medalist. The Duschenays, who never made the senior podium in Canada -- it wasn't exactly a Soviet-like group of talent ahead of them -- switched from Canada to France for which they won a World title and medaled at Euros and Olympics. More recently, Contesti married into Italy and switched from France, after which he won a European silver medal, was Top 10 in all the Euros in which he competed (including once for France), and was Top 10 at Worlds in three of four attempts. (He didn't make it out of qualis in Moscow, skating for France.)

    Who knows what Zhulin will do for Zlobina/Sitnikov? They came in 10th at their first Euros.

    If there were local skaters who were getting robbed because an import had better politiks, then I could see the objection. Plus, singles have to sit out two years in any case, which is a pretty big sacrifice for a skater, and so did Zlobina/Sitnikov, since one wasn't already skating for Azerbaijan. Two years is a lot of time and money to train with little to show for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leticia View Post
    May I ask someone who is knowledgable, as to, if Kim yuna wants to competes at 2013 World, will she have to participate in GPs, or senior Bs? (or 4cc)
    Yes, unless the ISU grants an exception for her to compete at 4C's, like they did for Plushenko to skate this year at Euros. However, she can't argue that she was suffering serious injuries.

    She can get two GP's next year if she commits as a "come-back" skater. Depending on the new alternate rules (still to be published), she might be able to get an alternate "come-back" skater position instead of committing to two.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    What about the infamous Indian pair on the JGP? I wouldn't blame other coaches and teams if they'd rather not be on the same warm-up ice as someone who is a safety risk for the other skaters entered into an event. I am open to debating TES vs PCS -and especially what the requirements should be, but I see nothing wrong with having some min requirements. Problem is, the current Senior requirements for Worlds are anything but minimal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSV0Ei8GlsU
    OMG! I am glad to see that I could go and compete for India. I couldn't possibly do worse than that! Though I do feel sorry for the skaters. Why were they sent? Shouldn't their coach decide that they are not ready? I know that some people may think that it is a good learning experience, but I think I would be really embarrassed if I skated like that on JGP...although it obviously is not their fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Coming from one of those countries - in theory it all looks nice, in practice it means that instead of attempting to grow something in the country the federation keeps importing useless skaters and sending them to the competitions rather than equally useless local. It is much easier to import a skate who will train anyway (on their parents expense!) in the USA than invest in the fasilities in the country. The ice rink in Israel used to function far better when the centre of the skating was in Israel. Ever since it shifted to the USA I don't see anyone skating in Metulla. Sure, it all began with the imported skaters such as Shmerkin and Chait/Sakhnovski, but there were things that were happening here (Zarertskis, Katz, Krasnopolski, Bugrov) till the import became much more appealing (Bychenko, Syken, Serov, Bardakova etc)
    Yes, I can see your point.

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    so it looks that most of the skaters will have to participate in the B's, empty seated Euro arenas with no TV coverage. Only the big boys and girls from the big nations will be shown at the worlds (one of the few half way sold out events). That will for sure increase ratings and popularity of the sport.

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