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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post

    But Yuna wasn't the first Korean skater to compete at Worlds or even the Olympics. Yuna has been in the making ever since the first Korean skater competed at Worlds. The experience and expertise gained through that by the Korean federation undoubtedly benefited Yuna
    I agree. It was Korean coaches who helped Yuna to learn all the basics including triple jumps up to Lutz. These coaches were former athletes representing Korea at Worlds and Olympics.
    Last edited by seabm7; 06-29-2012 at 08:11 AM.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I think it is almost offensive that there is no requirement for PCS at all. I know there is a lot more "swing" in that mark, but that is like the ISU is saying that components are a completely unimportant part of skating.
    This. Hopefully it's not going to result in boring programs where all the focus is reaching the required TES and choreography and interpretation is lacking. I'd also hate to see a decrease in basic skating skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The Australian skaters are screwed: their Federation is weak and has no money, and there's nothing close by.
    The situation sucks unbelievably much.
    Last edited by Hanna; 06-29-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post


    The point is that you stay at the international competition level until you're strong qualify for Euros/4C's, and then when you're strong enough, you qualify for Worlds. (I'm talking about smaller federations where there aren't many strong skaters, and it was an instant entry to the qualis at championships. The Olympics are a different story.)
    All the skaters who competed at Worlds in March were deemed to be strong enough then. And now they are being told they are not. They are being told they have to chase a certain numbers of points this season and if too many of them get it then the total will be arbitrarily raised midway through the season. I do not know of any other sport that works that way.

    The other problematic issue is that Worlds next year is the main de facto Olympic qualifier. Again I do not know of any other sports where federations are effectively shut out of taking part in the main Olympic qualifying competitions.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  4. #84
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    Only 18 singles skaters qualify for the Olympics through Worlds. They vast majority, if not all of the skaters who would qualify spots for their country, are the ones who should not have an issue earning a minimum score.

    There are no minimums for Senior B's, and the Olympic qualifier is a Senior B. It's likely that there will be a minimum score requirement for the Olympics, but I don't think even the Worlds minimums are harder to attain than some of the NOC requirements,and the Euros/4C's minimums aren't.

    As far as telling skaters that suddenly they're not good enough for Worlds, that's nothing new: there were skaters who were told that when the first minimum score requirements were added two years ago.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Only 18 singles skaters qualify for the Olympics through Worlds. They vast majority, if not all of the skaters who would qualify spots for their country, are the ones who should not have an issue earning a minimum score.
    Isn't it 24 for singles, 19 for dance and 16 for pairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    There are no minimums for Senior B's, and the Olympic qualifier is a Senior B. It's likely that there will be a minimum score requirement for the Olympics, but I don't think even the Worlds minimums are harder to attain than some of the NOC requirements,and the Euros/4C's minimums aren't.

    As far as telling skaters that suddenly they're not good enough for Worlds, that's nothing new: there were skaters who were told that when the first minimum score requirements were added two years ago.
    There is a huge difference between the minimum score that was set two years ago and the new one for Worlds. It is going to have a devastating effect on the elite skating programmes of developing figure skating nations.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  6. #86

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    I dunno. I would think its kind of devastating to go all the way to worlds just to get cut after prelims. This way, skaters are saved from this fate. It is tough, but sport is tough. I think it will be ok. Hopefully it encourages big countries to send a greater variety of skaters to senior B comps in the interest of having more meet the minimum score. And it would have been interesting to see Kaetlyn Osmond skate at Worlds. If the National champ can't earn that minimum score but someone else from her country can, maybe that someone else was the better choice all along...

    I don't think we'll see the minimum score raised halfway through the season unless there's dozens more skaters reaching it than spots in the FS at Worlds.
    Last edited by haribobo; 06-29-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  7. #87

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    Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    I would think its kind of devastating to go all the way to worlds just to get cut after prelims.
    It is far worse not to have the chance to go to Worlds in the first place.

    Skaters from different countries have different expectations from a World Championships. A lot of Americans felt Alissa Czisny's performance at Worlds was a disaster whereas Clara Peters qualifying for the SP was a major achievement for Irish figure skating and a news story that peaked interest in the story here. With probably no skater at Worlds next year we're not going to have that kind of exposure for the sport.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine.
    Perhaps you should avoid Worlds then and just watch the GPF.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.
    Unfortunately you are not in the minority, at least on this forum. But it shows how bad it is to this sport, when even the "Fans" want to ban the skaters from competing, and these comments gives the ISU even more support for there damaging rules and ideas. Its just sad.

    If i would be a skater from a small federation, i would have no motivation to continue, because its just impossible to make this high minimum score, and its not the same to compete at a senior B, which nobody wants to watch, or even at Euros/4CC. The World Championships are completely different.
    Last edited by elfenblüte; 06-29-2012 at 12:57 PM.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    If the National champ can't earn that minimum score but someone else from her country can, maybe that someone else was the better choice all along...
    Not necessarily, because maybe the national champion is a better skater and deservedly consistently has a larger advantage in PCS than the one who earned the minimum score has in TES.

    Of course with any system, sometimes the best skater in the country is not the one who has the best day at nationals.

    But what if the best skater does have a good day at nationals and easily earns the minimum there (even accounting for generous callers and inflated GOEs at nationals) but didn't have a good day technically at the international competitions?

    Euros/4Cs would be another chance to earn the scores for Worlds . . . unless the skater doesn't even already have the international score needed to gain entry there.


    I don't think quality of skating skills per se will decrease significantly because skaters still need to have the skill level to execute the elements successfully -- especially level 3+ step sequences.

    But the other components might get shoved to bottom priority by skaters who need to focus on executing the elements

    E.g., at senior B and even GP events we might see a big difference in approach between skaters who are there trying to earn minimum TES so they can qualify for a bigger event later in the season vs. skaters who have already done so and are there trying to win the competition they're competing in now.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Perhaps you should avoid Worlds then and just watch the GPF.
    That's what I've been doing for several years

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    Unfortunately you are not in the minority, at least on this forum. But it shows how bad it is to this sport, when even the "Fans" want to ban the skaters from competing, and these comments gives the ISU even more support for there damaging rules and ideas. Its just sad.

    If i would be a skater from a small federation, i would have no motivation to continue, because its just impossible to make this high minimum score, and its not the same to compete at a senior B, which nobody wants to watch, or even at Euros/4CC. The World Championships are completely different.
    If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post

    If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all.
    So you want to ban T & T as well?

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by seabm7 View Post
    So you want to ban T & T as well?
    what's t&t?

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    That's what I've been doing for several years



    If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.
    I dont see the imported skaters as a problem, they may can help to develope the sport in the respective country. Sure there are also negative examples, but the ISU cant control this with any rule, its up to the national federation which skater might represent their country.
    But to exclude the majority of ISU members from competing at the World Championships, this is definitely not the right way.

    Clara Peters is a very good example to make Figure skating more popular. Her possibilities are very limited, but she really tries to do the best, even she can land only double jumps. She really enjoys to compete and she shows that in her programs, i love to watch her! She wouldnt have such a great success if she would have been excluded from the big Championships. I prefer to watch skaters from small federations who try their best at Worlds, than the 5th best american or japanese skater.
    It is still called the World Championships, and it is normal that there are much more skaters competing and not only the best 20 from maybe 5 countries. It should be reachable for every country in the world.

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    what's t&t?
    Takahashi and Tran. I was in a hurry, so I just wrote their initials. My bad.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by seabm7 View Post
    Takahashi and Tran. I was in a hurry, so I just wrote their initials. My bad.
    I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    I dont see the imported skaters as a problem, they may can help to develope the sport in the respective country.
    Coming from one of those countries - in theory it all looks nice, in practice it means that instead of attempting to grow something in the country the federation keeps importing useless skaters and sending them to the competitions rather than equally useless local. It is much easier to import a skate who will train anyway (on their parents expense!) in the USA than invest in the fasilities in the country. The ice rink in Israel used to function far better when the centre of the skating was in Israel. Ever since it shifted to the USA I don't see anyone skating in Metulla. Sure, it all began with the imported skaters such as Shmerkin and Chait/Sakhnovski, but there were things that were happening here (Zarertskis, Katz, Krasnopolski, Bugrov) till the import became much more appealing (Bychenko, Syken, Serov, Bardakova etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    Sure there are also negative examples, but the ISU cant control this with any rule, its up to the national federation which skater might represent their country.
    Can you give me one example of the positive example? Seriously, I can think of Israel, Azerbaidzhan, Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    But to exclude the majority of ISU members from competing at the World Championships, this is definitely not the right way.
    There is a huge number of the skaters who shouldn't be there at the first place...

    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    Clara Peters is a very good example to make Figure skating more popular. Her possibilities are very limited, but she really tries to do the best, even she can land only double jumps. She really enjoys to compete and she shows that in her programs, i love to watch her! She wouldnt have such a great success if she would have been excluded from the big Championships. I prefer to watch skaters from small federations who try their best at Worlds, than the 5th best american or japanese skater.
    Your right. I don't enjoy it one little bit. Peters is fine when there is just Peters. When there are 20 skaters on Peter's level the whole competition becomse one happy tea break.
    As for Peters - she was born in 1991 and 've been cometing in the seniors level since 2008. What do the rules say? Till when she could compete in Juniors?
    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    It is still called the World Championships, and it is normal that there are much more skaters competing and not only the best 20 from maybe 5 countries. It should be reachable for every country in the world.
    Exactly. Not 30 Americans and 20 Russians representing the rest of the world. Since right now it's the case - we might as well give up watching 15 of them

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.
    Takahashi is. Tran, however, is Canadian, has never lived in Japan and does not speak the language.

    The coach thought it was important that a skater of Asian heritage partner with Takahashi , becauses the look would be "right". Apparently it has fooled some, as Tran is very much an "import" skater.


    I think as long as the skaters who hop citizenship do make an effort to develop the sport in the country they adopt, it is actually a good thing. If they never travel to the country at all, and do nothing to help others, then I am against the practice. But honestly, having an adopted citizen who can help collect supplies, who can teach workshops, and who can give the country someone to cheer for (I think Amanda Evora said she never realized how much the Philippines was behind her in the Olympics, despite her skating for the US) really does support skating development.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.
    That's an argument I never understood. Nobody's forcing you to watch the competition from start to finish and there is a seeding procedure to make sure you can skip the first groups.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post

    I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.
    You are right. I should have said Tran of T & T, not both of them.

    Concerning Takahashi, she started as a single skater in Japan, then learned her basic pair skills in China while she lived there. She even competed at the 2004 Chinese Championships with a Chinese partner. She moved back to Japan and tried a Japanese partner, but it did not work out well. At the end, she found Tran in Canada and has been training in Canada.
    Last edited by seabm7; 06-29-2012 at 04:31 PM.

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