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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    And what if a world class skater (like a Denis Ten) were to be injured and unable to compete in the fall but healthy enough to compete in the spring? No ISU championship because no minimum met, or can a federation petition for such an invitation?
    I guess he'd have to miss the competition, unless, of course, he's a superstah from a strong federation
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    Does this ruling only effect countries who have not qualified direct entries through the previous ISU championships?
    Since there is no qualifying round, isn't everything a direct entry now?

  3. #43
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    Javier Fernandez would have qualified for Euros. Euros/4C's scores are lower, and he would have gotten international championship experience that way.

    The base for Ladies doing the minimum possible (rotated) required SP technical content (3T/2T, 3S, 2A, B-level CH sequence, layback, sit/camel, combo [one foot change, no change of position] with base quality is:

    18.4
    18.9-19.0 if a flying entrance is required.

    Add another 1.1 to 1.3 for Level 1's instead of Level B's.

    The old TES minimum (17) for Ladies at championships was less than the minimum required technical content done competently.

    For Euro/4C's Ladies, the Ladies' minimum TES for the SP is 20, barely over being able to fulfill the minimum requirements, without a single feature or +GOE involved. I think that is reasonable at the senior championship level.

    The issue is different on the Men's side, where apart from the layback spin, they ask for competitiveness, rather than being able to meet the minimum.

    For Worlds, they're asking for 40% more technical content/GOE, a requirement for competitiveness on the Ladies side, as well as the Men's. I pointed out that Lafuente's technical base for one competition was 27 points: that included a 3F, 3Lo/2T, and three L3 and one L4 elements and was still under the minimum.

    Levels are going to be even more crucial this year, placing more power in the hands of the technical panels. I suspect that Ladies on the cusp will go for a more conservative jump content and attempt to trade GOE points for difficulty, until they earn the minimum.

    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    Does this ruling only effect countries who have not qualified direct entries through the previous ISU championships?
    Without prelims, there are no direct vs. indirect entries.

    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    For example, I believe Denis Ten qualified 2 men for KAZ for Worlds next season. Is the ISU saying, despite the pre-qualification, both skaters must have met the minimum requirement to enter?
    Yes. That's been true since the ISU added minimum championship scores, although the minimums were a lot lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    And what if a world class skater (like a Denis Ten) were to be injured and unable to compete in the fall but healthy enough to compete in the spring? No ISU championship because no minimum met, or can a federation petition for such an invitation?
    The TES minimums can be earned the previous or current season.
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  4. #44

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    But they also need to concentrate on skating as clean as possible, with sufficient difficulty, even if that's at the expense of presenting the program. Some might intentionally choose to sacrifice PCS and actually end up with lower placements at the fall competitions as a result. But a senior B or even a GP medal won on the strength of the PCS won't get you into Worlds if the TES wasn't high enough.

  5. #45
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    Thanks, kwanfan1818! Sorry if those seemed like dumb questions.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The TES minimums can be earned the previous or current season.
    So you if once earn the TES minimum, it is valid for two seasons? (I wonder why two seasons, why not one or three seasons, or why not to be valid forever?)

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    Thanks, kwanfan1818! Sorry if those seemed like dumb questions.
    This stuff is impossible to keep up with. We all keep each other up-to-date. The prelim thing took a while to dawn on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    So you if once earn the TES minimum, it is valid for two seasons? (I wonder why two seasons, why not one or three seasons, or why not to be valid forever?)
    It's possible they aren't valid forever because they've been reducing the required elements and changing some to single-level "choreographic" elements over the years. The biggest impact in the positive direction is on 3A's and 4's, which affect mostly the Men and a few Pairs. In general, the farther back you go, the more the skater had the opportunity to earn more points not available to current skaters, although not with 3A's and 4's.

    I suspect it's to give the skaters a little leeway in terms of injury and rewarding good performances in the prior year, but not so much leeway that they can skip seasons without being bothered to go through some qualification process.

    The only thing that appears to be valid forever is being able to be a comeback skater: it doesn't matter when the skater was seeded.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I suspect that Ladies on the cusp will go for a more conservative jump content and attempt to trade GOE points for difficulty, until they earn the minimum.
    Thanks for all the explanations, kwanfan.

    When is the deadline for providing the qualifying procedure to the IOC? I think it comes up very, very soon.

  9. #49

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    Can minimum TES be earned in any ISU-sanctioned competitions?

    For example, Misha Ge got 36.37 for TES for his SP at Asian Trophy in 2011.
    Does this count?

  10. #50

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    The minimum scores for Worlds are really scary. It's not only the developing federations whose skaters will probably be unable to meet the scores but also a lot of mid-level skaters (e.g. Lafuente, like kwanfan mentioned).

    Selfishly, the good thing to come out of this is probably more and better skaters at Senior B's. The ladies' competition at last year's Finlandia Trophy was completely horrid level-wise and I'd be glad to see more interesting skaters there this year. But it will definitely be an unfair advantage to non-Europeans as most senior B's and junior competitions are held in Europe.
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    It seesm ridiculous that Kevin VDP at worlds in teh SP landed 3T/3T, 3Lz and 2A and level 3s and 4s on all his elements yet failed to make the relevant TES score.

    Obviously Kevin was hoper for bigger elements but there are plenty of skaters who are either from either weak skating countries, or may just be up from junior where those elements are what they plan in their SP and they won't get a chance to comepte? Seems fecking stupid.

  12. #52

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    The ISU wants to reduce the number of competitors at Worlds. We all get it. Are those minimum TES the best way to get it done? They should just say that they want x number of skaters at worlds because they dont want an event to last more than y number of hours. Maybe they can find a compromise and let everyone skate at Euros and 4CC and only the top 20 TES at Worlds. Stop beating around the bushes and tell us how many skaters you want.

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    The ISU is not looking for a certain number of skaters at Worlds, I think, but wants to raise the level of the competition and at the same time keeping the costs down.

    The preliminaries were a compromise - everyone gets to go to Worlds, participate in some way and has a chance to make it to the "main" competition. The federations of the skaters who participated in the preliminaries had to pay for their accommodation and meals.

    Many of you probably don't know that in many other sports all participants (or their federations) pay for their own expenses. Or, in some sports, only the top athletes from the world standings are invited and everybody else pays. Anyway, the "smaller" federations, naturally more concerned by the preliminaries (although CAN, RUS, FRA etc also had skaters in the preliminaries at Euros and Worlds or Junior Worlds, even Plushenko skated in the preliminaries) apparently didn't like the idea of paying something themselves, no matter how good or weak their skater is. So what they get now is just the logical reaction of the ISU. The ISU understandably didn't want to get back to the nine-hours Ladies Short Programs at Worlds.

    The minimum scores for Worlds are certainly tough. However, as the ISU communication states, it can be adjusted if too many (or too few) skaters achieve it. They have raised the bar. Again, in other sports the criteria are also tough sometimes to get to Worlds or the Olympic Games (athletics for example).

    Finally, many feel that going to Worlds is very important for skaters from "developing" countries. I think these skaters can learn as much from participating in the Junior Grand Prix, Junior Worlds and International B events (where there are usually some top skaters). Worlds is a prestigious event and should feature the best. Yuna Kim came from a developing country and went through the Junior circuit. When she debuted at Worlds in 2007, she took the bronze right away. She didn't need to go to Worlds to learn. Maybe she is not a good example as she is an extraordinary talented skater, but it shows that if there is a real talent, it will come through.

    The only problem I have with not everyone being able to go to Worlds is that in many countries federations might loose funding if they are not attending ISU Championships.

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    Would it be possible for the ISU or a federation to arrange something like an "After-Congress" or a poll that could be sent to all ISU members that they have the chance to vote for reintroducing the preliminaries?

    I think many federations that voted against the preliminary rounds would vote FOR them again, since they are aware of the radical solution the ISU made.

    Participate in the preliminary round and show your free program at the World Championships is better than nothing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post

    Finally, many feel that going to Worlds is very important for skaters from "developing" countries. I think these skaters can learn as much from participating in the Junior Grand Prix, Junior Worlds and International B events (where there are usually some top skaters).
    If you are from "developing" countries, it is not even easy to go to Senior B's.

    The entire North/South America will have only one senior B this year on September. The Asia/Pacific area will have one, too, on August. Both of them are at the beginning of the season, when TES scores will be lower compared to the rest of the season.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! ..... The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! ((
    I disagree. It's better to have Quality than Quantity. This should drastically cut-down on the number of suburban-Americans with dual citizenships and wealthy parents showing up at Worlds, Euros and Four Cs as if on vacation. [Legitimate talents representing Philippines, Pto Rico and a few other places not included in this group!]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    I disagree. It's better to have Quality than Quantity.
    There is some sense to this reasoning, BUT to see the example above where a skater like Kevin VanDer Perren's Worlds SP score with 3 triples, a 2A and his spin and footwork sequences all level 3 or 4 would not have met the minimum quality? Sorry, but that is ridiculous!

    Let us hope the ISU, as Eislauffen reminded us, revisits the minimum score later this season.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    I disagree. It's better to have Quality than Quantity. This should drastically cut-down on the number of suburban-Americans with dual citizenships and wealthy parents showing up at Worlds, Euros and Four Cs as if on vacation. [Legitimate talents representing Philippines, Pto Rico and a few other places not included in this group!]
    I dont get the "increase the standard" discussion. Do the best skaters become worse, because some lower ranked skaters participate at the same event?

    All of these lower ranked skaters train hard, they all have high costs, they need coaches, skates, costumes and training time, its not like they are sitting on the couch the whole year and then go to Worlds only because they are the only skater from that country, they all train hard! And the ISU could simply honor that all with a fix entry into the world championships, at least for the best skater from every ISU member!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    There is some sense to this reasoning, BUT to see the example above where a skater like Kevin VanDer Perren's Worlds SP score with 3 triples, a 2A and his spin and footwork sequences all level 3 or 4 would not have met the minimum quality? Sorry, but that is ridiculous!
    See, if you were arguing that from the POV of a ladies' skater I would agree with you, but I think 3 triples (with a 3T-3T being a triple-triple ladies were landing in the 80s if I remember correctly) with a 2A... I mean, that's the content of a decent ladies' program. I definite prefer quality over quantity, but that jump content for a man who has placed in the top ten for world's does not impress me an iota.

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    While those on the cusp might go for conservative content -- ie, not adding a 3Lz or 3F to a SP -- until after they've earned their minimum -- for; example, Lafuente could have made 28 in one competition by landing a clean 3S or 3T instead of an almost -3 3F -- the ISU has created a minimum that makes the jumps much more important. L3-4 elements have to be a given when even with them, one mistake on a jump is the difference between making a qualifying score or not.
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