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    Minimum Total Technical Scores for 2012-13 ISU Championships (including Jr Worlds)

    Splitting these posts off from the ISU Congress thread into a new and separate thread for discussion:
    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    Decisions of the ISU council: http://t.co/dPs1OAOa

    It addresses controlling numbers after removing the preliminary rounds through minimum technical scores, but the requirements look really high to me, particularly for Worlds. Just going on the scores from Worlds last year only the top 15-17 in each discipline would meet the required score for Worlds next season. (Obviously a few more would sneak in looking at the scores over the whole season, but annoyingly the ISU doesn't break down the SB list into TES and PCS...)
    Does anyone know what the required scores were this year for comparison purposes?
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    They're also introducing minimum scores for Junior Worlds, and those scores are not low.

    So federations will need to make sure anyone who they hope to send to Junior Worlds, who is capable of earning those scores, has gotten JGP or other international assignments as an opportunity to earn the minimum score.

    How many junior internationals take place in January and February, for surprise junior national champs or junior skaters who were injured in the fall?
    Good questions.

    From ISU Communication No. 1742, Decisions of the ISU Council:

    The Minimum Total Technical Scores for the season 2012/13 decided by the Council after consultation with the respective Technical Committees and the Sports Directorate are as follows:

    (SP = Short Program – SD = Short Dance – FS = Free Skating – FD = Free Dance)

    ISU European and ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships 2013:
    MEN SP 25,00 FS 45,00
    LADIES SP 20,00 FS 36,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 20,00 FS 36,00
    ICE DANCE SD 18,00 FD 28,00

    ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013:
    MEN SP 20,00 FS 40,00
    LADIES SP 20,00 FS 35,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 20,00 FS 30,00
    ICE DANCE SD 17,00 FD 27,00

    ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013:
    MEN SP 35,00 FS 65,00
    LADIES SP 28,00 FS 48,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 28,00 FS 45,00
    ICE DANCE SD 29,00 FD 39,00

    The Minimum Total Technical Score (not including Component Scores) is a Technical Score and must have been reached in an ISU recognized International Competition (as per Article 38, paragraph 7 of the ISU Constitution and Rule 107, paragraphs 1 to 9 of the ISU General Regulations) during the ongoing or immediately preceding season in both segments, Short Program/Short Dance and Free Skating/Free Dance (See ISU Special Regulations Single & Pair Skating Ice Dance 2010, Rule 378, paragraph 3).

    While the Minimum Total Technical Score must be reached separately in each segment (not a total of the two segments), the Minimum Total Technical Score for each segment may be reached at different competitions.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 06-27-2012 at 05:09 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    I was wondering how raising the international standard from a technical level under IJS would work.

    With the 6.0 system, earning a 5.9 in 1991 for technical merit was different from getting one in 1987.

    Looking at the ladies' short program results alone from Four Continents this year, the minimum technical requirement alone would take out 13 of the 30 skaters entered.

    Was it 15.00 last year?

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    Changes are:

    Men:
    SP-From 20 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 25, 25% increase
    • Worlds: 35, 75% increase


    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 35 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 45, 29% increase
    • Worlds: 65, 86% increase


    New Juniors: 40

    Ladies:
    SP-From 15 to:
    Euros/4C's: 20, 33.3% increase
    Worlds: 28, 87% increase

    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 25 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 36, 44% increase
    • Worlds: 48, 92% increase


    New Juniors: 35

    Pairs:
    SP-From 17 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 20, 18% increase
    • Worlds: 28, 65% increase


    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 30 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 36, 20% increase
    • Worlds: 45, 50% increase


    New Juniors: 30

    Dance:
    SD-From 17 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 18, 5% increase
    • Worlds: 29, 71% increase


    New Juniors: 17

    FD-From 27 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 28, 4% increase
    • Worlds: 39, 44% increase


    New Juniors: 27

    New Junior TES minimums have been set to last year's senior TES minimum for the Men SP, Pairs FS, Dance SD, and Dance FD. They are higher than last year's TES minimum for:

    Men FS: 35->40, 14% increase
    Ladies SP: 15->20, 33.3% increase
    Ladies FS: 25->35, 40% increase
    Pairs SP: 17->20, 18% increase
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    So this will decrease the participation of developing federations in the ISU championships.

    It should increase the importance of non-championship international competitions. Which feds will step up to offer more of those -- especially outside Europe, and especially in the winter for skaters who have a breakout at their national championships (or newly formed teams) but didn't have fall assignments?

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    I wonder if the result will be score inflation like at nationals, but at senior Bs?

    Judges from smaller federations will have an interest in getting their skaters to meet these scores. If they score ALL the skaters higher, then there is no bias toward their own skater and there is still fairness in reaching the podium, but it will help skaters qualify for championships.


    It is weird how they always say scores can't be compared across competitions, but then set a number that has to be reached at a different competition to compare to. A skater who scores a 35 at one competition may not be at the same level of one who scores it at another...

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    From the ISU Congress thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So federations will need to make sure anyone who they hope to send to Junior Worlds, who is capable of earning those scores, has gotten JGP or other international assignments as an opportunity to earn the minimum score.
    Since all but one of the competitions are in Europe, and the exception may be in Istanbul, depending on where the rink is located, this will mean for everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    How many junior internationals take place in January and February, for surprise junior national champs or junior skaters who were injured in the fall?
    Lots for Ladies and Men, a good number for Dance, three for Pairs, assuming there are enough entries.

    December (for early nationals):
    5-9: NRW Trophy (Men, Ladies, Dance), Dortmund
    5-9: Santa Claus Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Budapest
    18-22: Istanbul Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Istanbul

    January:
    3-5: 1st New Year Cup (Ladies, Men), Bratislava
    8-12: Skate Helena (Ladies, Men), Belgrade
    10-12: Mentor Nestle Nesquick Cup (Ladies, Men, Pairs, Dance), Torun
    10-12: Coupe Internationale (Dance), Lyon
    10-13: Volvo Open Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Riga
    31-3 Feb: The Nordics (Ladies, Men), Reykjavik

    February:
    7-10: Bavarian Open (Ladies, Men, Pairs, Dance), Obertsdorf
    7-10: Dragon Trophy/Tivoli Cup (Ladies, Men), Ljubljana
    14-17: Hellmut Siebt Memorial (Ladies Men), Vienna
    21-24: 1st Citta di Torino Trophy (Ladies, Men, Dance), Torino
    21-24: Challenge Cup (Ladies, Men, Pairs), Den Haag
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! Even some of the better Ladies wouldnt meet this minimum score for the World Championships, let alone all the skaters from smaller federations. I am so sad we will never see skaters from smaller federations at Worlds again. The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! ((

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It is weird how they always say scores can't be compared across competitions, but then set a number that has to be reached at a different competition to compare to. A skater who scores a 35 at one competition may not be at the same level of one who scores it at another...
    We say this all the time, but has anyone from the ISU ever said this?

    According to 1742, based on Congress' decision to remove the Preliminary round, the Council made the decision to raise the TES minimums for championships; they don't need Congress' approval to do this.

    Their stated goal:
    "to achieve an Event Schedule manageable for the respective Organizing Committees, the Skaters and Officials as well as respecting engagements with host and commercial partners"

    They also built in the caveat:
    However, if it became evident that the number of entries based on the Minimum Total Technical Scores listed below would be significantly higher or lower than expected, the ISU Council reserves the right to subsequently slightly re-adjust the Minimum Total Technical Scores in order to achieve the above mentioned objective.
    There's also the "Canada*" clause:
    "Even with these Minimum Total Technical Scores which limit the entries to the necessary reasonable level as described above, the abolishment of the Preliminary Rounds will most likely result in higher expenses for the organizers. The ISU will evaluate these financial aspects on a case by case basis with each organizing Member in order to find a reasonable and satisfactory solution fair to all parties and respecting as much as possible the 2012-2014 ISU Budget.
    *Of course it also applies to all of the other assigned championships that will be impacted by the Congress' decision, but Skate Canada shouted the loudest.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 06-27-2012 at 05:46 PM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Dates for 2013 ISU Championships:
    21 - 27 January - European Figure Skating Championships 2013, Zagreb, Croatia
    6 - 11 February - Four Continents Figure Skating Championships 2013. Osaka, Japan
    25 Feb. - 3 March - World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013, Milan, Italy
    10 - 17 March - World Figure Skating Championships 2013, London (Ontario), Canada

    Another excerpt from ISU Communication 1742:
    ... In the case of the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships for which normally no Minimum Total Technical Scores are in place, the Council introduces such Minimum Total Technical Scores based on the powers granted to the Council through the ISU Constitution, Article 17.1.q).

    Based on the experience of the past season, the Minimum Total Technical Scores listed below [see post #1 for excerpt] should result in the above-mentioned goal of achieving a number of competitor entries that allow to have an Event Schedule manageable for the respective Organizing Committees, the Skaters and Officials as well as respecting engagements with host and commercial partners. However, if it became evident that the number of entries based on the Minimum Total Technical Scores listed below would be significantly higher or lower than expected, the ISU Council reserves the right to subsequently slightly re-adjust the Minimum Total Technical Scores in order to achieve the above-mentioned objective.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 06-27-2012 at 05:46 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! Even some of the better Ladies wouldnt meet this minimum score for the World Championships, let alone all the skaters from smaller federations. I am so sad we will never see skaters from smaller federations at Worlds again. The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! ((
    You have a point. 20.00 is reasonable. At 28.00, of the 30 skaters who skated the short program, only ten earned 28.00 or more.

    Possibly 5 or 6 others who didn't may have earned that score internationally prior to the event.

    But yes, the numbers are really going to drop significantly.

    Worlds may be skated in a day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfenblüte View Post
    The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! Even some of the better Ladies wouldnt meet this minimum score for the World Championships, let alone all the skaters from smaller federations. I am so sad we will never see skaters from smaller federations at Worlds again. The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! ((
    Just to make it clear - the member federations who voted for the deletion of the Qualifying Rounds did "destroy" the championships. This was not a proposal from the ISU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikon View Post
    Just to make it clear - the member federations who voted for the deletion of the Qualifying Rounds did "destroy" the championships. This was not a proposal from the ISU.
    I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for clarifying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aikon View Post
    Just to make it clear - the member federations who voted for the deletion of the Qualifying Rounds did "destroy" the championships. This was not a proposal from the ISU.
    Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores? Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I wonder if the result will be score inflation like at nationals, but at senior Bs?

    Judges from smaller federations will have an interest in getting their skaters to meet these scores. If they score ALL the skaters higher, then there is no bias toward their own skater and there is still fairness in reaching the podium, but it will help skaters qualify for championships.
    I have a hard time imagining this happening, the skaters could get some help, but the skaters will need the higher level jumps and spins to really be able to compete. I don't suddenly see a rush of judges awarding +2 or +3 GOEs for double flips or lutzes.

    That minimum TES for Worlds is just .
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So this will decrease the participation of developing federations in the ISU championships.
    I agree with this observation.

    I wonder how long countries like India, Puerto Rico, South Africa, Malaysia, and the list goes on....will pay to be members if their skaters cannot compete in any ISU Championships.
    An even more important question is...can they still vote at the ISU if none of their skaters compete in ISU Championships over a certain period of time..or do they retain a 'guest membership' as long as they pay their dues.
    Hmmmm...some candidates for leader would be interested in seeing them retain voting rights, I am sure.

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    I like it this way more.

    When there were the qualifying rounds, each skater (from the smaller skating federations) had only one chance to qualify, and the number of places were limited. Now the skaters need to reach some qualifying score, but they may attend several competitions. They have as many attempts as their association can afford (or their own pocket can afford). They are not fighting for some limited amount of places, they are fighting to get the right score, so one could argue that it is in their own hands. There is a chance that more skaters will reach the score than if there was just a limit on the number of places who can qualify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores? Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?
    Did they re-elect Speedy? It isn't as if he didn't have a record of allowing lots of decisions like this without the involvement of the Congress.

    I'm surprised they went as high as they did, but I'm not at all surprised that the qualifying scores were raised, and they shouldn't be either.

    Perhaps this will be even further incentive for federations to sponsor more Senior B's and qualifying junior events.

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    17 of 30 of the Ladies in Nice, 11 of the 24 who skated the FS, did not score 28 in the SP:

    Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari, and the six Ladies who didn't make the FS.

    Silete and Korobeynikova earned the minimum at Euros (and may have at other competitions). Czisny at GPF, Popova and Silete at NRW, Frank and Marchei at International Challenge Cup.

    Hecken narrowly missed at Nebelhorn. Lafuente narrowly missed at TEB. Lacoste's highest score was 26+. Unless I've missed a score, McCorkell and Mikonsaari weren't even close. All would have qualified for Euros/4C's, with a minimum of 20.

    I didn't check the six who didn't make the free skate. Since the FS scores in the Prelims for those who didn't qualify for the SP ranged from 23-~37, I doubt that any of them scored 28 in the SP in international competition. (I didn't see any notable SP skaters in this group.)

    Lafuente's base content at Golden Spin -- 3F, 3Lo/2T, 2A, 2-L3 spins, 1-L4 spin, and L3 FW, not exactly shabby -- was 27; the TES minimum for Worlds is 28.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    17 of 30 of the Ladies in Nice, 11 of the 24 who skated the FS, did not score 28 in the SP:

    Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari, and the six Ladies who didn't make the FS.

    Silete and Korobeynikova earned the minimum at Euros (and may have at other competitions). Czisny at GPF, Popova and Silete at NRW, Frank and Marchei at International Challenge Cup.

    Hecken narrowly missed at Nebelhorn. Lafuente narrowly missed at TEB. Lacoste's highest score was 26+. Unless I've missed a score, McCorkell and Mikonsaari weren't even close. All would have qualified for Euros/4C's, with a minimum of 20.

    I didn't check the six who didn't make the free skate. Since the FS scores in the Prelims for those who didn't qualify for the SP ranged from 23-~37, I doubt that any of them scored 28 in the SP in international competition. (I didn't see any notable SP skaters in this group.)

    Lafuente's base content at Golden Spin -- 3F, 3Lo/2T, 2A, 2-L3 spins, 1-L4 spin, and L3 FW, not exactly shabby -- was 27; the TES minimum for Worlds is 28.
    OMG! I didn't realise that skaters like Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari wouldn't qualify! That's really harsh. But I think there will be a way around it, such as inflated scores at B competitions, because I can't imagine that they would want to have Worlds with only 13 ladies.

    Also, the skaters will have more attempts than just one to reach the score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores?
    They don't have to: the power lies in the hands of the ISU Council, not the Congress. They justified it in 1742 as having been in response to the vote by Congress, but they could have done it without the change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?
    One the one hand, I don't think the smaller federations would have voted for elimination of prelims if they had been told, but that assumes that they are that naive/stupid. The only upside for them is not paying expenses for skaters who don't make the later rounds, since the majority don't host championships. On the other hand, Canada knew enough to make a stink about not being able to afford Worlds with the elimination of preliminaries, and I doubt that David Dore didn't know.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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