View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions

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  • Lu Chen

    90 30.30%
  • Michelle Kwan

    18 6.06%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    25 8.42%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    116 39.06%
  • Mao Asada

    35 11.78%
  • Yuna Kim

    13 4.38%
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  1. #81
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    Cmon people... Vote for Chen Lu. Shizuka deserves to be ahead of her

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Worlds 2012 the 3S was under-rotated and got negative GOE, no 3T attempted.

    Worlds 2011 Popped the salchow to a 1S and had the 3T downgraded (<<).

    Worlds 2010 She landed the 3T with positive GOE but did not attempt a salchow.

    2010 Olympics popped the toe-loop to a 1T and did not attempt a salchow.

    I don't think she included a salchow for at least a couple of seasons prior to the Olympics so i'm just not seeing salchow and toe-loop as being these wonderful jumps that Mao did/does.
    i really am disgusted by how you take 2012 worlds as eksemple cause that performance was a not how mao has been performing during the whole season... and the same goes for your eksempel from the olympics 2010, after that performance Mao herself said that, she was shocked to make a mistake on the toe cause it's usuelly a very easy jump for her(her foot got stuck in the ice if you watch it in slowmo). and in the 2010 worlds Mao didn't put a salcow in her jump arsenal because she was already doing TWO 3A so no space for the salcow... the year after(2011) when she removed one 3A she suddenly got space for other tripple and the she put back the salcow and lutz.. and the toe has always been in mao's jump arsenal, and she is even doing it in combination 2A-3T in her free, and that combo she has been doing for two seasons now! and as a single 3T she has always had it in her free! so yes she had been doing and still does all kind of jumps, that was her whole intention with her new jump layout from the beginning!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    i really am disgusted by how you take 2012 worlds as eksemple cause that performance was a not how mao has been performing during the whole season... and the same goes for your eksempel from the olympics 2010, after that performance Mao herself said that, she was shocked to make a mistake on the toe cause it's usuelly a very easy jump for her(her foot got stuck in the ice if you watch it in slowmo). and in the 2010 worlds Mao didn't put a salcow in her jump arsenal because she was already doing TWO 3A so no space for the salcow... the year after(2011) when she removed one 3A she suddenly got space for other tripple and the she put back the salcow and lutz.. and the toe has always been in mao's jump arsenal, and she is even doing it in combination 2A-3T in her free, and that combo she has been doing for two seasons now! and as a single 3T she has always had it in her free! so yes she had been doing and still does all kind of jumps, that was her whole intention with her new jump layout from the beginning!
    It sure sounds like Miss Asada having trouble landing 3S and 3T, regardless what you are trying to say.

    This is just another reason why she should be voted out.
    All the ladies, even ones that got voted out, had no problem landing 3T and 3S except Miss Asada.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    Cmon people... Vote for Chen Lu. Shizuka deserves to be ahead of her
    And Lipinski deserved to be ahead of both

  5. #85
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    Yeah I really don't get the reason for Lipinski getting the boot before Mao, Lulu, and Shiz. But I guess its in the past!

  6. #86
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    I do agree with Tara going before Mao. Mao was just as precocious and probably would have duplicated Tara's feat as a 15 year old World and Olympic Champion in 2010 if the age rule Tara didnt have to deal with allowed it. Mao at the same age was a more elegant and artistic skater, and she had some triple-triples up her sleeve (a triple lutz-triple loop for instance) too plus the triple axel. Mao at 14-15 went a combined 5-1 vs Arakawa, Slutskaya, Cohen, the top 3 skaters in the World besides herself at the time. Tara at 14-15 went a combined 7-5 vs Kwan and a badly slumping Slutskaya. Mao overall had a longer career with more achievements, Tara didnt even win a regular grand prix event remember. IMO Mao > Tara >>> Chen and Arakawa.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 06-27-2012 at 06:26 PM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    Yeah I really don't get the reason for Lipinski getting the boot before Mao, Lulu, and Shiz. But I guess its in the past!
    ITA. Tara should have been around a lot longer, and I am not even her fan (though I did like her).

  8. #88

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    I agree Mao had the worst timing. She was barely too young for the Torino Olympics, and she had a decent chance of beating Shizuka, Sasha and Irina's performances there. She also would have gone in with much less pressure than Sasha and Irina, knowing she likely have at least one more Olympics given her age.

    Moreover, she grew up at a time when the 3Axel was king, the flutz as well as somewhat under-rotated 3-3 were largely forgiven. By the time she was competing Senior Worlds 3A was just another triple, and there was great scrutiny on the flutz and underrotations. Not that these are unfair requirments, but they were changes that greatly benefited her biggest rival, YuNa, and they were instigated after Mao became a Senior. Kwan had already won a pile of medals before COP changed the rules on her. Trenary sneaked in a WGM before figures were taken away and her competitors' triples arsenal overwhelmed her. Mao spent almost her entire senior career with the rules changed against her strengths.

  9. #89
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    Although she was never going to be a dominant or legendary champion, I think Trenary is another one who had bad timing. She came in during the figures wait your turn era and had to wait for Witt, Thomas, and Manley to retire to have a real chance, had to compete with the greatest jumper ever Midori Ito when figures were being phased out, and had figures being phased out when she had good jump content for the figures era but was now having to compete with American girls like Yamaguchi, Harding, even Kerrigan who had a full set of triple pretty much, and faced with the impossible task of learning several new triples late in her career. Then again her 1990 World title with a botched short program was lucky enough, so it evens out I guess.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Although she was never going to be a dominant or legendary champion, I think Trenary is another one who had bad timing. She came in during the figures wait your turn era and had to wait for Witt, Thomas, and Manley to retire to have a real chance, had to compete with the greatest jumper ever Midori Ito when figures were being phased out, and had figures being phased out when she had good jump content for the figures era but was now having to compete with American girls like Yamaguchi, Harding, even Kerrigan who had a full set of triple pretty much, and faced with the impossible task of learning several new triples late in her career. Then again her 1990 World title with a botched short program was lucky enough, so it evens out I guess.
    Hmm, I think you could look at Trenary either way. I kinda thought she couldn't win under either the old rules (not so great at figures) or the new ones (not so prolific with triples). But I agree she got caught in the middle of a big shift, and probably would have fared better had the rules never changed.

    I think after this game is over, we'll need Ladies' Survivor, The PRE-quel! That is, the previous 12 greatest World/Olympic champions, ending with the 1994 WGM, Yuka Sato. Witt! Thomas! Sumners! Baiul! Yamaguichi! Ito!

  11. #91
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    Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawnie View Post
    Didn't Trenary win figures at the World Championships she won? And either placed 1st or 2nd at them in 1989?
    Yes but against weak figures fields. She wasnt even ever beating Manley and Witt in figures, let alone the great figures skaters like Thomas and Ivanova. Leistner who didnt place that well in figures in her own era was the winner of figures (over Trenary) at the 89 Worlds.

  13. #93
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    I voted for Irina Slutskaya due to the fact that half of the scoring in skating is based on presentation. I think Slutskaya tended to have some of the worst "presentation" skills (especially musical interpretation) of any top 3-6 skater in memory. Thank you for the assessment quoted below and even more for the links. I greatly enjoyed the Keri Lotion exhibition and the Schindler's List performance, but the others weren't that great!! Memory makes me think that her 2005 Worlds LP was one of the only times I liked one of her competitive programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    Unpopular opinion, but this is the point where I would kick out Slutskaya.

    Slutskaya had about one season where she was skating at her full potential, which was the season of her comeback in late 99-2000. She improved every aspect of her skating and was at her absolute peak. Her 99 and 2000 sps are her best ever and I don't think I've ever seen her move with more power, freedom, elegance, and feeling as this section of this exhibition program from the 2000 season. or this Schindler's List exhibition exhibition from around the same time. That would have been a way better program for the Olympics than the heavy and ponderous Tosca program.

    And of course, her best competitive skate was the 2000 GPF. Obviously the triple/triples are a huge part, but she's never skated a competitive program with that much lightness and ease ever again. Compare this to her "Don Quixote" skates from the next season and their is no comparison.

    Then, once she got back to the top, it was back to the old Slutskaya; stiff upper body, stiff arms, choreography disconnected from the music, stalked jumps, heavy landed lutz/flip jumps, unfinished spins, etc... Total regression.

    Chen and Arakawa at least improved the quality of their skating, style, and programs throughout their career.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Worlds 2012 the 3S was under-rotated and got negative GOE, no 3T attempted.

    Worlds 2011 Popped the salchow to a 1S and had the 3T downgraded (<<).

    Worlds 2010 She landed the 3T with positive GOE but did not attempt a salchow.

    2010 Olympics popped the toe-loop to a 1T and did not attempt a salchow.

    I don't think she included a salchow for at least a couple of seasons prior to the Olympics so i'm just not seeing salchow and toe-loop as being these wonderful jumps that Mao did/does.
    At the Olympics, Mao tripped right before she was taking off for that 3T, so that's not exactly a great example to use.
    http://youtu.be/5y5mcxHe9Qc?t=3m25s

  15. #95
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    This is just another reason why she should be voted out.
    All the ladies, even ones that got voted out, had no problem landing 3T and 3S except Miss Asada.
    Yep but unlike any other lady here she could pull off a Triple Axel and in combination and with how bad her Triple Toe is according to you (certainly agree it isn't a strong jump for her). She was still able to get it ratified under the harsher code and in combination with a Triple Flip and could also do a Double Axel-Triple Toe.

    And by your silly analogy Kim should be out of contention too because she barely ever pulled off a Triple Loop.

  16. #96
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    I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
    While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
    Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?
    Last edited by t.mann; 06-28-2012 at 06:08 AM.

  17. #97
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    I don't think it's fair to compare jumps before and after CoP; before CoP, lip/flutz/pre-rotation/under-rotation were non-issues.

    As for Mao not having a salchow and toe loop, that is ridiculous. She has always had those and the dubious one was the lutz, which she has only managed to get ratified a few times post-CoP.

    The great thing about Mao is that she is continuing to improve herself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBKXCZzB_S8

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    I am curious about how the result of of the ROUND 9(maybe Irina vs Mao match) will turn out.
    While I think Mao is stronger than Irina, many other users seem to think otherwise.
    Would Irina (who had a total of about 8 ratified 3-3s in her long career) be able to beat Mao with three 3As(at the Olympics)?
    Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.

    Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either. A young Mao beat Irina, but Mao lost many times through her career to Miki Ando who Irina could beat in her sleep.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Irina got stronger as her career went on, while Mao burst on the scene and began going downhill after her first World title with some brief rises back up, then regressing again. So based on that I will vote Mao off before Irina in round 9.

    Rochette nearly beat Mao in Vancouver, and both had mistakes. Irina certainly would have had the chance to do so, and wouldnt have had to skate perfectly either.
    Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.

    Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
    Mao beat Irina at Grand Prix in Olympic year.

    Mao's career has not been at all smooth, but then, whose career has been? There is not one skater on the list who has done consistently well. Inconsistency is the norm, not the exception. (I guess if consistency is the criteria, I would say Michelle Kwan, but even she has her mental stumbles most unfortunately at Olympics.)
    True, I just think Irina's amazing longevity as a top skater gives her the edge on Mao who is already fizzling out past her teenage years. Especialy since Mao was never able to truly be a dominant skater like Kim was for 2 seasons to compensate. In 2005-2006 was she was denied the chance by the age rule, in 2006-2007 she was challenged and beaten more than once by both Kim and Ando, in 2007-2008 was challenged by Kim and barely won Worlds over Kostner and Kim.

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