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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    I also think that for some people a broken heart can be eventually a really positive and empowering thing.

    I also think that an unhappy marriage held together "for the sake of the children" can be just as damaging for the children as having the parents separate and find happiness elsewhere.
    Many things are possible; if you want to deal with reality, however, you also have to acknowledge that while those things CAN be true, so can other things--like broken hearts do not eventually become positive things and children are damaged, if children are involved at all.

    And I think Andora has a point--we aren't all doing the best we can.

    I don't think a lot of people do the best they can; I think that most of us do things that aren't the best and then justify our behavior by saying that happiness is the most important thing (our own, of course) and by rationalizing that everyone else will be better off in the long run, too.

    It seems to me that life is often as messy as we make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Shae Lynn View Post
    Craig and Christine seemed perfectly happy at his golf charity event in 2009.
    And they may have been. Or they may not have been. You can't tell what goes on in a marriage by looking.
    Trolling dates all the way back to 397 B.C. - People began following Plato around and would make fart noises after everything he said.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I don't think a lot of people do the best they can; I think that most of us do things that aren't the best and then justify our behavior by saying that happiness is the most important thing (our own, of course) and by rationalizing that everyone else will be better off in the long run, too.
    That's very well put, Prancer.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    That's very well put, Prancer.
    Agreed 100%.
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    Your true nature calling" -- Jane's Addiction

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    M

    I don't think a lot of people do the best they can; I think that most of us do things that aren't the best and then justify our behavior by saying that happiness is the most important thing (our own, of course) and by rationalizing that everyone else will be better off in the long run, too.

    It seems to me that life is often as messy as we make it.

    And that is my point - that's the best people can do - they do things that are not "ideal" and then use all kinds of rationalizations to justify their behaviour. It's the best they can do. God knows I've been there. I think Andora was right when she said people do what they think will make them happy. And whatever would be a better action gets swallowed up in the need for happiness (however fleeting). It's the best they can do. If any one of us, in an emotionally fraught/painful/frightening/threatening situation (either physically or mentally) could do better, no doubt we would. But apparently human beings are flawed. And can't seem to do anything different from what they end up actually doing no matter how much grief it causes others, or guilt and shame it causes themselves.

    And I absolutely agree that life is as messy as we make it. If we're really really lucky (and I do mean lucky) we learn how to minimize the messiness.

    And I do agree that not all broken hearts heal, whether it's the adults involved, or the children. And that most situations are not "ideal".

    I have no time for blame.
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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    And that is my point - that's the best people can do - they do things that are not "ideal" and then use all kinds of rationalizations to justify their behaviour. It's the best they can do.
    No, it isn't. That's the point. We're all flawed and prone to put ourselves first and others last. But we don't HAVE to. If we're willing, we can think of others and their needs and try to do what's best for them.

    We're flawed, but we're not robots.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    And that is my point - that's the best people can do - they do things that are not "ideal" and then use all kinds of rationalizations to justify their behaviour. It's the best they can do.
    I don't think that's what Andora and Prancer are saying.

    Some people don't really care about doing their best. They want what they want and screw everyone else. That's not doing your best, and they aren't trying to be their best. That's not human nature--that's a particular person's individual decision, and it's worthy of derision when it happens.

    So saying we should all just accept whatever people do without criticizing it because "that's the best they could do" is not only false on the face of it, but also implicitly condoning such behavior by removing it from appropriate critique.

    Who knows what happened with Sale, but my hunch would be this wouldn't be the work of St. Coincidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    If we're really really lucky (and I do mean lucky) we learn how to minimize the messiness.
    Taking responsibility for one's behavior isn't luck--it's called being responsible. That's something adults are supposed to do as a matter of course.
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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    And that is my point - that's the best people can do - they do things that are not "ideal" and then use all kinds of rationalizations to justify their behaviour. It's the best they can do. God knows I've been there. I think Andora was right when she said people do what they think will make them happy. And whatever would be a better action gets swallowed up in the need for happiness (however fleeting). It's the best they can do. If any one of us, in an emotionally fraught/painful/frightening/threatening situation (either physically or mentally) could do better, no doubt we would. But apparently human beings are flawed. And can't seem to do anything different from what they end up actually doing no matter how much grief it causes others, or guilt and shame it causes themselves.

    And I absolutely agree that life is as messy as we make it. If we're really really lucky (and I do mean lucky) we learn how to minimize the messiness.

    And I do agree that not all broken hearts heal, whether it's the adults involved, or the children. And that most situations are not "ideal".

    I have no time for blame.
    Once again, with feeling, it's not the best they can do. And if it is, then people need to at least take responsibility for bad decisions and actions that cause pain to others instead of brushing it aside with "life is messy/people are flawed/it's the best we can do." Even when a bad decision (getting involved with a married man) turns into a good thing for all involved, cop to the fact that it stemmed from a selfish and negative place, and it was still ill advised to more forward with.

    The lack of personal responsibility for bad decisions in this post is astounding to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Taking responsibility for one's behavior isn't luck--it's called being responsible. That's something adults are supposed to do as a matter of course.
    Absolutely. To indicate it has anything to do with luck or ideal situations is ridiculous.
    "How you treat the weak is
    Your true nature calling" -- Jane's Addiction

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Shae Lynn View Post
    You know, I was going to be politically correct on this one. But I just can't. What an amazing coincidence that both of Jamie's 'partners' divorced their wives within a year of meeting her.
    This is true...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but who is Craig Simpson?

    ETA- OK, I get it; they were friends before Jamie met David, and skated in a cheesy show (I never cared for those dancing with the skaters type shows)
    Neither did I-and I'd never heard of Craig Simpson either. I don't follow hockey except during the Winter Olympics.
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  9. #69
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    Usually in relationships that end messily, the partners come out better in the end. Craig's ex-wife is probably glad she is rid of him if he was willing to dump her so easily for the next hot thing to throw herself his way. She deserves better. And Craig and Jamie deserve each other, so best of luck to them.

    I feel sorry for the kids, though. My fiance is a child of divorce, but an affair was not the reason, and his parents were amicable throughout, and he has nothing negative to say about it. I imagine his attitude on relationships and marriage would be A LOT different if an affair had been the reason...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Usually in relationships that end messily, the partners come out better in the end.
    I haven't found that to be the case. Usually if anyone is happier, it's the one who did the dumping. If nothing else, the person dumped is going to be worse off financially, and the person doing the dumping is already with someone, so they are moving into another relationship with more financial upside.
    Craig's ex-wife is probably glad she is rid of him if he was willing to dump her so easily for the next hot thing to throw herself his way.
    Or maybe she is really sad that her marriage is over, and will now take a financial hit she may never recover from.

  11. #71
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    Isn't it time for this thread to be moved to the Trash Can, since it has next to nothing to do with skating as opposed to just speculation on semi-private lives?
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by VALuvsMKwan View Post
    Isn't it time for this thread to be moved to the Trash Can, since it has next to nothing to do with skating as opposed to just speculation on semi-private lives?
    Was it ever about skating?
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  13. #73
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    No, it isn't. That's the point. We're all flawed and prone to put ourselves first and others last. But we don't HAVE to. If we're willing, we can think of others and their needs and try to do what's best for them.

    We're flawed, but we're not robots.
    Yet we do these things anyways, proving that, at that particular moment, it was the best we could do. With some time and reflection, we might have done differently, but that's for a paralel universe to decide.

    You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.
    Last edited by Blair; 06-22-2012 at 09:37 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    Yet we do these things anyways, proving that, at that particular moment, it was the best we could do.
    Sorry, I'm not following you at all. Take another example -- those kids that bullied the bus monitor. They had a choice -- bully her or not bully her. They chose to bully her. Does that mean that at that moment, bullying her was the best they could do?
    Charter member of the "We Always Believed in Ashley" Club and the "We Believe in Ricky" Club

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post

    You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.
    I agree, and the other way it's misogynistic is that she is the seducing witch from which men must be protected, because they have no self-control on their own, and women should be the guardians.
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  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post

    People do what they do. They live their lives doing the best they can. Life's messy. None of us are perfect. Sometimes we can get better at it with practice. Sometimes not. Shrug.

    ETA: I hope Jamie and Craig are very happy together. I know it took me two tries to get it right, and my husband as well. And I hope all the children involved get all the love and attention they need and deserve inspite of, and/or because of, the actions of all their various parents.
    Agree 100% Alilou. Well said.

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    Yet we do these things anyways, proving that, at that particular moment, it was the best we could do. With some time and reflection, we might have done differently, but that's for a paralel universe to decide.


    No, bad decisions are NOT the best you could do at that particular moment. They remain a choice you made that 9 times out of 10, you knew was not the best course of action, especially when others are involved. But more selfish motives over-rule that. To call it "the best you could do at the time" is a huge pile of self-serving, guilt-avoiding b.s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blair View Post
    You know, I'm not down with people ragging on Jamie for this. It screams of misogeny to blame her. As far as I can tell, she was broken up with David and had made no vows to Christine. Isn't Craig the one who did the douchy thing by going against his vows to his wife? Place the blame where it's squarely deserved.
    This I can agree with. In terms of "the other woman", I tend to feel pretty awful for her in most cases as well. How often does a married man actually leave his wife for his mistress? They also get the short straw, only they know it. It's very sad.

    Jamie got lucky, really. In fact, she got lucky twice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyliefan View Post
    Sorry, I'm not following you at all. Take another example -- those kids that bullied the bus monitor. They had a choice -- bully her or not bully her. They chose to bully her. Does that mean that at that moment, bullying her was the best they could do?
    Well, i don't know the kids, nor have i seen the video, but I imagine that their upbringings and personal experiences will colour how they treat others in the future, so, maybe they had shit lives. I don't know.

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    Wasn't David Pelletier married when Jamie hooked up with him?

    In the end Jamie, David and Craig all got what they deserved: marriage to serial cheaters. None had any concern for the ex-spouses and/or children left in their wake.


    I wouldn't be surprised if Jamie's time with Craig is as brief as her first marriage was. Let's hope they don't reproduce and compound the damage.

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