View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Voters
323. You may not vote on this poll
  • Lu Chen

    49 15.17%
  • Michelle Kwan

    18 5.57%
  • Tara Lipinski

    120 37.15%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    21 6.50%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    84 26.01%
  • Mao Asada

    21 6.50%
  • Yu-Na Kim

    10 3.10%
Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 247
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    251
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    voted for irena her skating never really touched me

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,173
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    If Tara is the weakest link, what does that say about her biggest rival Michelle, who placed 2nd to Tara at 97 Worlds, 97 Grand Prix, 97 Nationals, and 98 Olympics? Just asking.

    I'm voting for Arakawa or Irina. Arakawa has Olympic gold, but it bothers me that she didn't attempt either of her two planned 3/3 combos. With Irina, she failed to deliver too many times, so my vote will likely go to her.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,890
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    While ITA with you, I think people have been very clear thus far in their Tara hate. If one more person writes "___________ was a woman, Tara was a girl" I'll just barf. Which I guess answers your Kwan question: her famous tata spiral saves her. Apparently, skating while boobed is very important at fsu.

  4. #24
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    241
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    If Tara is the weakest link, what does that say about her biggest rival Michelle, who placed 2nd to Tara at 97 Worlds, 97 Grand Prix, 97 Nationals, and 98 Olympics? Just asking.

    I'm voting for Arakawa or Irina. Arakawa has Olympic gold, but it bothers me that she didn't attempt either of her two planned 3/3 combos. With Irina, she failed to deliver too many times, so my vote will likely go to her.
    Irina failed to deliver too many times? She has about the same amount of clean free skates as Kwan has. You think Slutskaya should go before Lipinski? That's ridiculous. Quite everything about Irina, maybe except spirals, is superior to Lipinski. Jumps, spins, skating skills, achievements, longevity, career. When Tara competed she was of course more consistent, but Irina later in her career got the consistency and presentation she lacked before 2000. From 2004-2006 she consistently pulled off 5-7 triple programs.

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Shizuka.

    I think she was a gorgeous skater with wonderful skills but to say she competed as long as she did, given her skill set, she should have accomplished a lot more. She lacked competitive fire and focus and was far too sporadic with her brilliance. Her gold medal win in Torino was good but definitely one of the more lackluster performances I've seen in terms of OGM wins. Her 2004 worlds performance was 3x better IMO.

    Shizuka's inconsistency and lack of dominance is why I pick her to go before Lipinski. Tara's career was over in the blink of an eye but her competitiveness and focus are what lift her slightly above Shizuka in my eyes.
    Last edited by kwanatic; 06-21-2012 at 04:13 PM.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Irina failed to deliver too many times? She has about the same amount of clean free skates as Kwan has.
    That last statement is completely untrue I am pretty sure. In the regular season there might not be a big difference but at big events like Olympics and Worlds Kwan has many more clean free skates than Irina. The judges were willing to give Irina the World title 5 or 6 times and the Olympic Gold twice (more than she probably deserves, but that is another topic) and she only managed to win 2 combined World in Olympic events out of all that. So she wasnt a clutch big event competitor to the extent of Kwan or Lipinski, not at all.

    Actually the only clean competition Irina did in a World or Olympic event ever was the 2002 Worlds where she did watered down routines in 2 of the 3 rounds and safely cruised to an easy gold after Kwan stumbled in the short. 2005 Worlds she botched the short program. 1997 Worlds she had a great and courageous free skate, but only after bombing the short program. The only clean competition she did in all her Grand Prix final wins was the 1999-2000 Grand Prix final, she also skated 2 clean programs at the 1995-1996 Grand Prix final but didnt win. I dont remember all her performances at Europeans but her best ones were 1996, 2000, and 2006.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Helping Mirai choose between Italian dressing and vinaigrette.
    Age
    30
    Posts
    1,652
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Shizuka Arakawa

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    4,353
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3933
    Off with Irina. Compared to the others left in the group, I find her unfinished and unpolished. I get that she's very athletic and won many competitions, but for me all the others are more complete on the presentation/artistic impression side.

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    That last statement is completely untrue I am pretty sure. In the regular season there might not be a big difference but at big events like Olympics and Worlds Kwan has many more clean free skates than Irina. The judges were willing to give Irina the World title 5 or 6 times and the Olympic Gold twice (more than she probably deserves, but that is another topic) and she only managed to win 2 combined World in Olympic events out of all that. So she wasnt a clutch big event competitor to the extent of Kwan or Lipinski, not at all.

    Actually the only clean competition Irina did in a World or Olympic event ever was the 2002 Worlds where she did watered down routines in 2 of the 3 rounds and safely cruised to an easy gold after Kwan stumbled in the short. 2005 Worlds she botched the short program. 1997 Worlds she had a great and courageous free skate, but only after bombing the short program. The only clean competition she did in all her Grand Prix final wins was the 1999-2000 Grand Prix final, she also skated 2 clean programs at the 1995-1996 Grand Prix final but didnt win. I dont remember all her performances at Europeans but her best ones were 1996, 2000, and 2006.
    I agree. Skating under pressure was never Irina's forte. She'd have good or decent performances, but in the 6.0 era the name of the game was good clean quality over flash and quantity and it took Irina a very long time to learn that lesson...not too sure if she ever really learned it to be honest.

    Irina lost many a world championship due to her inability to skate cleanly. In 2000 and 2001 Irina had the lead over Michelle heading into the LP but couldn't skate cleanly enough to hang on. Especially in 2001: Irina followed up a clean 7-triple performance by Michelle with a flawed and messy 6-triple program in which she tried to do way too much and she ended up losing.

    At the Olympics both of Irina's LPs (2002, 2006) had obvious errors as well. She definitely had a number of clean performances but under the pressure of the world/Olympic stage, she did not hold up as well as Michelle did.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    241
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I agree. Skating under pressure was never Irina's forte. She'd have good or decent performances, but in the 6.0 era the name of the game was good clean quality over flash and quantity and it took Irina a very long time to learn that lesson...not too sure if she ever really learned it to be honest.

    Irina lost many a world championship due to her inability to skate cleanly. In 2000 and 2001 Irina had the lead over Michelle heading into the LP but couldn't skate cleanly enough to hang on. Especially in 2001: Irina followed up a clean 7-triple performance by Michelle with a flawed and messy 6-triple program in which she tried to do way too much and she ended up losing.

    At the Olympics both of Irina's LPs (2002, 2006) had obvious errors as well. She definitely had a number of clean performances but under the pressure of the world/Olympic stage, she did not hold up as well as Michelle did.
    I didn't talk about only Worlds/Olympics performances. I meant their overall amount of clean skates in their career. Slutskaya, like it or not, has lots of them. And that's right, she stumbled under pressure at 2000 and 2001 Worlds and of course at both Olympics but she should've won in 2002 based on the SP. Kwan was gifted first place SP at those Olympics and it was she who was favouired by the judges to win the gold in Salt Lake. In Torino, Vancouver and Nice, the gold was Irina to take but she did stumbled under the pressure. So she had four occasions where she could have won had she skated cleanly. However, she would've been clean at 2001 Worlds, hadn't she gone for the second, very tough triple-triple. If she had just landed triple sal-triple loop-double toe and then triple lutz-double loop, she would've won the look. Of course it's not a sufficient justification, that she put in a lot of difficult content. Skating clean is skating clean, yet she should get some credit for attempting difficult combos.
    Now, look at what lead up to 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds and 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics. Win after win over Michelle. There was a lot talk about the fact that from 1999-2000 GPF Irina always beat Michelle when they met, apart from 2000 and 2001 Worlds. If you don't believe that Irina skated cleanly many many times in her career just go on youtube and see those, off the top of my head:
    1996 Euros
    1997 Worlds
    1999-2000 GPF (both FS's)
    2000 Euros
    2005 Worlds
    2005 Cup of Russia
    2004 Marshall's World Cup
    2004 Marshall's World Skating Challenge
    2005 GPF
    2005 Cup of China
    2001 Nationals
    2002 Worlds (both QR and FS)
    That's 14 clean free skates off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some more. Kim has only two in her career. Arakawa 3 for sure (2004 Worlds QR and FS, 2006 Olympics), maybe more. Kostner has naver skated a clean long.
    Lipinski and Kwan, on the other hand, have tons of clean free skates.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I agree. Skating under pressure was never Irina's forte. She'd have good or decent performances, but in the 6.0 era the name of the game was good clean quality over flash and quantity and it took Irina a very long time to learn that lesson...not too sure if she ever really learned it to be honest.

    Irina lost many a world championship due to her inability to skate cleanly. In 2000 and 2001 Irina had the lead over Michelle heading into the LP but couldn't skate cleanly enough to hang on. Especially in 2001: Irina followed up a clean 7-triple performance by Michelle with a flawed and messy 6-triple program in which she tried to do way too much and she ended up losing.

    At the Olympics both of Irina's LPs (2002, 2006) had obvious errors as well. She definitely had a number of clean performances but under the pressure of the world/Olympic stage, she did not hold up as well as Michelle did.

    Agreed. I dont think she was a poor competitor. You dont win 8 World and Olympic medals and 7 European titles without being a good competitor. Just not the best one. Not a Witt, Kwan, Yamaguchi, or Lipinski level one for sure. She was favored or co favored to win Worlds or the Olympics atleast 6 times (2000, 2001, 2002 both events, 2005, 2006 Olympics) and won only 2 of those. Lipinski and Arakawa in short primes managed a World and Olympic Gold, eclipsing Irina with 2 World golds in major wins. To me that is not the best competitor of her era, or even close to it.

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Agreed. I dont think she was a poor competitor. You dont win 8 World and Olympic medals and 7 European titles without being a good competitor. Just not the best one. Not a Witt, Kwan, Yamaguchi, or Lipinski level one for sure. She was favored or co favored to win Worlds or the Olympics atleast 6 times (2000, 2001, 2002 both events, 2005, 2006 Olympics) and won only 2 of those. Lipinski and Arakawa in short primes managed a World and Olympic Gold, eclipsing Irina with 2 World golds in major wins. To me that is not the best competitor of her era, or even close to it.
    All true. However, Arakawa and to some extent did not have the most pressure on them when they won their OGMs. Irina was a co-favorite in both 2002 and 2006 and faced as much pressure as Michelle and Sasha respectively. Oddly she was the last skater both times, which meant she had more time to think about it. However, the gold was hers for the taking each time and she seemed to crumble under the pressure. Still, her accomplishments are too many to be ignored. It's just that she could have achieved even more if she had nerves of steel.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    All true. However, Arakawa and to some extent did not have the most pressure on them when they won their OGMs. Irina was a co-favorite in both 2002 and 2006 and faced as much pressure as Michelle and Sasha respectively. Oddly she was the last skater both times, which meant she had more time to think about it. However, the gold was hers for the taking each time and she seemed to crumble under the pressure. Still, her accomplishments are too many to be ignored. It's just that she could have achieved even more if she had nerves of steel.

    True on Shizuka. She never had much pressure on her. She was never a favorite to win a big title, even in 2005 as defending Champion. I dont think she ever went into an event any higher than 4th in peoples minds. That doesnt take away that she did wonderful performances to become World and Olympic Champion but you cant compare.

    Witt and Kwan you can compare more easily as they had just as much pressure on them throughout their careers and came through perfectly more often. Kim sort of as well, I think she mostly suffered from bad luck of injuries or lack of motivation when it comes to her dissapointing Worlds record.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Somewhere, beyond the sea...
    Posts
    1,883
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I didn't talk about only Worlds/Olympics performances. I meant their overall amount of clean skates in their career. Slutskaya, like it or not, has lots of them. And that's right, she stumbled under pressure at 2000 and 2001 Worlds and of course at both Olympics but she should've won in 2002 based on the SP. Kwan was gifted first place SP at those Olympics and it was she who was favouired by the judges to win the gold in Salt Lake. In Torino, Vancouver and Nice, the gold was Irina to take but she did stumbled under the pressure. So she had four occasions where she could have won had she skated cleanly. However, she would've been clean at 2001 Worlds, hadn't she gone for the second, very tough triple-triple. If she had just landed triple sal-triple loop-double toe and then triple lutz-double loop, she would've won the look. Of course it's not a sufficient justification, that she put in a lot of difficult content. Skating clean is skating clean, yet she should get some credit for attempting difficult combos.
    Now, look at what lead up to 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds and 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics. Win after win over Michelle. There was a lot talk about the fact that from 1999-2000 GPF Irina always beat Michelle when they met, apart from 2000 and 2001 Worlds. If you don't believe that Irina skated cleanly many many times in her career just go on youtube and see those, off the top of my head:
    1996 Euros
    1997 Worlds
    1999-2000 GPF (both FS's)
    2000 Euros
    2005 Worlds
    2005 Cup of Russia
    2004 Marshall's World Cup
    2004 Marshall's World Skating Challenge
    2005 GPF
    2005 Cup of China
    2001 Nationals
    2002 Worlds (both QR and FS)
    That's 14 clean free skates off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some more. Kim has only two in her career. Arakawa 3 for sure (2004 Worlds QR and FS, 2006 Olympics), maybe more. Kostner has naver skated a clean long.
    Lipinski and Kwan, on the other hand, have tons of clean free skates.
    Don't get me wrong, I never meant to imply that Irina wasn't a good competitor b/c she was. She just had a number of times where gold was within her reach but her inability to settle down and skate cleanly cost her. But yes, Irina had her fair share of clean skates. Tara turned in clean skates during her career but the fact that her career consisted of 2 seasons at the top makes it less impressive when you compare it to skaters who skated for years and years. Michelle's number of clean skates over the course of her 10 year career is unheard of especially for a skater who was under pressure to perform or expected to win nearly 100% of the time. Her competitive focus is legendary!

    IMO, Michelle and Irina should finish 1-2 in this poll. Michelle wins this poll for me b/c of her record; no one is close to touching it. No, she didn't have the 3-3s or spins that others had but she still managed to kick ass without it which says a lot. Irina didn't have the presentation or artistic abilities of Michelle, but she did have the spins and jumps and was the only skater to really challenge Michelle (outside of the two-year rivalry Michelle had with Tara).

    Michelle's weakness was Irina's strength; Irina's weakness was Michelle's strength...that's what made them so interesting to watch when they went head to head. That's why I'd vote for them to win this thing. Others feel differently I'm sure, but that's my 2 cents. I'm sure I'll reiterate my sentiments two or three rounds from now...

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,259
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    IMO, Michelle and Irina should finish 1-2 in this poll. Michelle wins this poll for me b/c of her record; no one is close to touching it. No, she didn't have the 3-3s or spins that others had but she still managed to kick ass without it which says a lot. Irina didn't have the presentation or artistic abilities of Michelle, but she did have the spins and jumps and was the only skater to really challenge Michelle (outside of the two-year rivalry Michelle had with Tara).

    Michelle's weakness was Irina's strength; Irina's weakness was Michelle's strength...that's what made them so interesting to watch when they went head to head. That's why I'd vote for them to win this thing. Others feel differently I'm sure, but that's my 2 cents. I'm sure I'll reiterate my sentiments two or three rounds from now...
    I thought Yu Na and Mao would eclipse Michelle and Irina but I dont think that anymore. Their contemporary Miki Ando might end up with more combined World/Olympic titles than either of them it turns out.

  16. #36

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I thought Yu Na and Mao would eclipse Michelle and Irina but I dont think that anymore. Their contemporary Miki Ando might end up with more combined World/Olympic titles than either of them it turns out.
    Yu na: 1 world title, 1 OGM

    Mao: 2 world titles

    Miki: 2 world titles

    Unless Miki wins at least one more world or Oly title, and Mao never wins another one (I am assuming Yu na is retired at this point), Miki cannot have more titles than either of them.

    Chances are the score will remain the same for titles.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,890
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Their contemporary Miki Ando might end up with more combined World/Olympic titles than either of them it turns out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Unless Miki wins at least one more world or Oly title, and Mao never wins another one (I am assuming Yu na is retired at this point), Miki cannot have more titles than either
    yeah! You've demonstrated that you understand what the word MIGHT means! Tell Vash what prizes she has won Judy!

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    241
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I never meant to imply that Irina wasn't a good competitor b/c she was. She just had a number of times where gold was within her reach but her inability to settle down and skate cleanly cost her. But yes, Irina had her fair share of clean skates. Tara turned in clean skates during her career but the fact that her career consisted of 2 seasons at the top makes it less impressive when you compare it to skaters who skated for years and years. Michelle's number of clean skates over the course of her 10 year career is unheard of especially for a skater who was under pressure to perform or expected to win nearly 100% of the time. Her competitive focus is legendary!

    IMO, Michelle and Irina should finish 1-2 in this poll. Michelle wins this poll for me b/c of her record; no one is close to touching it. No, she didn't have the 3-3s or spins that others had but she still managed to kick ass without it which says a lot. Irina didn't have the presentation or artistic abilities of Michelle, but she did have the spins and jumps and was the only skater to really challenge Michelle (outside of the two-year rivalry Michelle had with Tara).

    Michelle's weakness was Irina's strength; Irina's weakness was Michelle's strength...that's what made them so interesting to watch when they went head to head. That's why I'd vote for them to win this thing. Others feel differently I'm sure, but that's my 2 cents. I'm sure I'll reiterate my sentiments two or three rounds from now...
    Now I agree with you kwanatic. I also reckon they should go 1-2 and even though I prefer Irina to Michelle I would probably give the first place to Michelle. One can say her tech content doesn't hold a candle to Slutskaya but one can also say Irina's artistry is much weaker. I personally love Irina's exuberance and energy on the ice and it is her kind of artistry. It's a tough choice for me. Michelle has more titles. But Irina's got spins, triple-triples, spring, speed and quite a few titles of her own, 7 european golds, two world golds and two olympic medals.

  19. #39

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    The word artistry was replaced by presentation years ago. So it was not about artistry, but rather presentation which has a different slant. That explains why Tara and Irina got high second marks, even though Michelle was clearly the better artist than both.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    730
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Shizz and her wedgies have got to go...

Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •