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  1. #81
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    I agree Michelle would likely have retired had she won the 98 Oly Gold. The funny thing is so many seem clueless to the fact her own legacy she was lucky the judges did not agree with some of her ubers who are insistent she was robbed of the gold that year. Otherwise likely nobody would be saying she was the best ever today, she would be similar to Yu Na, an amazing skater who didnt stay around long enough, and her career at that point would have been inferior to Yu Na's today, even with the Olympic Gold. While I am sure she was dissapointed at the time, and rightfully so, it is probably still today the greatest silver medal performance in history, and beatable only by a handful or less of gold medal performances, in the grand scheme of things it worked out the best it possibly could have for her, especialy given her immense love of competition, skating, challenge, and winning. She missed out on the boom years of pro skating, but the pro World was already starting to go downhill post Nagano anyway with all the stupid new pro ams, and the World Pro Championships including skaters like Michelle Kwan and Alexei Yagudin who were still dominant amateur skaters.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    I never said Tara had fully developed as an artist, and likewise, I don't think Michelle had fully developed at 15. But both clearly had developed enough...Michelle enough to beat a clean Chen Lu at Worlds 96 and Tara enough to beat a clean Michelle Kwan at Olympics 98.

    In regards to your dig at Tara not being "motivated to push her eligible skating any further", why is Tara being bashed for something SO many skaters (before and after) have done? Yes, many competed at Worlds, but mostly all retired from eligible skating the same year they won Olympic gold. Who knows...perhaps Michelle would have retired from eligible skating if she had won 98 Olympic gold.
    Well, it was "enough" in the eyes of that particular judging panel, and that's all that counts.

    Not a "dig" at Tara, and most certainly not a "bash." Tara won Olympic gold. Once anyone wins that ultimate achievement especially at such a young age, it makes sense they might find it hard to continue being motivated.

    Michelle has always said her goal was to participate in more than one Olympics. No way now to know if she would have continued if she'd won gold in Nagano. I believe she would have. Many people expected Tara to continue too especially due to how young she was and how much more she could have developed. I think Tara, Oksana, and Sarah having won at such young ages, were not motivated to continue competing, whereas Michelle seemed to be energized and fueled by competition. Of course not winning gold likely fueled Kwan's competitive spirit even more. Had Kwan won gold in Nagano tho' I think she would have continued through 2002 and maybe Worlds 2003 and then called it quits.

    ETA:
    Yep, it's Michelle's journey and the lessons found in it that ultimately have more meaning than simply winning Olympic gold. Winning or not winning, it's always how you respond to what happens to you that makes the difference.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 06-26-2012 at 02:52 AM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    No way now to know if she would have continued if she'd won gold in Nagano. I believe she would have.
    As if we didn't know.

  4. #84
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    ^^ Wow, another all-knowing FSUer. So very prescient. Now that sure sounds like a "dig."

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    You love Tara's "artistry" duane, no denying. Despite the fact the judges in Nagano IMO overscored Tara and underscored Kwan doesn't mean that "Tara was able to compete so closely with Kwan's artistry." It simply means that those panel of judges gave Tara the win. IMO, it was certainly not because Tara's "artistry" was comparable to or even competitive with Kwan's. Tara was a graceful skater and fun to watch, but she had miles to go in developing her artistry. Her movements were much???? more studied rather than flowing naturally. Sure, Tara skated some lovely programs, but her fp in Nagano was not one of them, again IMO.
    How can your opinion be a fact? I have

    Tara's performance was riveting... I say she deserved every mark she got... To go out there and skate balls to the walls, execute every move she planned and perform that program with heart and commitment.... Well that is what wins you the Gold Medal.

    Ask Oksana.... Sarah Hughes (who had no business winning.... Except she skated better than she had a right to... OR ask Sasha who should have won but couldn't folded.... And yet managed to be magical for the second one half of the program.

    And don't be fooled..... That OGM is worth millions of World titles... It's worth is demonstrated in every way one can measure... Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  6. #86
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    Okay, AxelAnnie, thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

  7. #87
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    I definitely agree that Tara was a skating prodigy athletically, but she was not artistically and MK had both. Also, now, the "prodigy" title is a bit dubious, or at least unfair, since there will never again be another prodigy due to the age rule. So Tara wins all future prodigy rights simply by default.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    And don't be fooled..... That OGM is worth millions of World titles... It's worth is demonstrated in every way one can measure... Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport
    I guess I've been fooled as well, but to me an OGM is not worth even 3 World titles, much less millions of them. I'll always see Browning as a better skater than Urmanov or Kwan as a better skater than Hughes. And it would surprise me greatly if Urmanov and Hughes had greater cumulative earnings/endorsement deals than Browning/Kwan.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    I'll always see Browning as a better skater than Urmanov or Kwan as a better skater than Hughes. And it would surprise me greatly if Urmanov and Hughes had greater cumulative earnings/endorsement deals than Browning/Kwan.
    Regardless, what AxelAnnie said is true:

    Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport.

    Michelle and Kurt are two skating royalties with megabucks and megafans, but I think there is no question that not winning the OGM--the "biggest prize in the sport"--is a thorn in their rosy resumes.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue View Post
    I guess I've been fooled as well, but to me an OGM is not worth even 3 World titles, much less millions of them.
    I'd say that an OGM is worth the four World Gold Medals of its quadrennial.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  11. #91
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    In skating, no doubt that the OGM is the biggest prize of them all. However, not having one isn't like a Karl Malone situation of never having a championship ring because though not of the same, otherworldly status of an OGM, a world championship title is heavily regarded in figure skating and still has clout associated with it. In a way, winning worlds for a figure skater is like a basketball team winning NBA finals while winning the Olympics is just something beyond. Or maybe the NBA finals is like winning the Olympics with no analogy for Worlds because winning Worlds is definitely worth more than a conference title in basketball.

    For my personal preferences, I like it when OGM winners have also won a World title because it adds more legitimacy to it. I know it's not entirely logical and I don't mean to downplay Olympic champions who don't have World titles, but it adds more credence that their wins weren't just flukes.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    For my personal preferences, I like it when OGM winners have also won a World title because it adds more legitimacy to it. I know it's not entirely logical and I don't mean to downplay Olympic champions who don't have World titles, but it adds more credence that their wins weren't just flukes.
    I agree with that statement as long as it's not a month later and then they retire. I like longevity if their bodies can take it.

    I aways bring up the Michelle/Sarah analogy. I would much rather have Michelle's careers even though she never won a gold but Sarah had a sub-par career who did well once when it counted. I don't think the Olympics legitimizes the sport anymore than the Goodwill Games did. If I came up with a made up competition and everyone competed would that medal be any more special than the World medal? Maybe.

  13. #93
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    I think many time World winners or dominant skaters like Kim who have the OGM have the edge over many time World winners or dominant skaters who dont have one. Michelle Kwan is an exception to that rule as she is one of a kind. However an OGM doesnt put skaters like Lysacek, Arakawa, Hughes, Bauil, Schwarz, Urmanov, Kazahkova & Dmitriev, or Kulik (skaters who fit neither of those categories, nor made any kind of special contribution to the sport) over skaters who dont have one.

  14. #94
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    Not to mention that in a judged sport, often times the winner is chosen by one or two votes. In a very close call, can one objectively say that the gold medal winner deserves to be put on legendary status while the silver medalist is only seen as great but not great enough? I think the public puts so much stock in the title itself that they don't bother looking at the context in which titles are won. As objectively as we like to judge competitions, the truth is that it's still highly subjective and winners aren't always clear-cut like in some other sports.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #95

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    I know athletes want to be Olympic Champion, but it just for some reason is not the same as it was back in the day. I don't think the OGM will ever give athletes Peggy Flemming, Dorthy Hamil, Brian Boitano Mary Lou Retton (yeah i know she was a gymnast) type popularity. Look at current athletes who have won the Olympics- Tara, Sarah, Evan, Carly Patterson, Nastia Leukin. They are in no way a big part of pop culture the way back in the day winners were. Michelle (in the US) is probably the closest thing and she does not even have an OGM. Sean White perhaps as well.

    For the general public, the Olympics have lost its lusture. I think I am the only person I know that watches them when they are on LOL.

  16. #96
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    I think Michael Phelps is as close as we can get to 1970s-80s style Olympic superstars.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think Michael Phelps is as close as we can get to 1970s-80s style Olympic superstars.
    Yeah you are right.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    ...
    And don't be fooled..... That OGM is worth millions of World titles... It's worth is demonstrated in every way one can measure... Doesn't mean one can't be great without it.... Just means it is the biggest prize in the sport
    That the OGM is the biggest prize in the sport doesn't mean that it is automatically worth millions of World titles ... it is the number of world titles, for example, that establish the greatness of Michelle Kwan and Kurt Browning, even without the OGM. Certainly the importance of the OGM isn't demonstrated "in every way one can measure". OGM Lysacek, for example, would probably give his right arm to earn as much as Kwan or Browning.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I think many time World winners or dominant skaters like Kim who have the OGM have the edge over many time World winners or dominant skaters who dont have one.
    But the women who are many-time World medalists are also Olympic Gold Medalists. Michelle is the only woman with 3-or-more World titles but no OGM.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    But the women who are many-time World medalists are also Olympic Gold Medalists. Michelle is the only woman with 3-or-more World titles but no OGM.
    Actually, the same can be said of Lili Kronberger and Opika von Méray Horváth.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

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