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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nours View Post
    That's untrue. Euros were open to non european people before 1948. I can't say it's been since forever, there's no non european skaters on the tables before 1934, but it was certainly the case before world war II also.
    Thank you for the explanation. That's what Ive read in a canadian book (Figure Skating, a History). But maybe they were just talking about 1947 and 1948 editions. The book says they allowed North american skaters to compete in 1947 and 1948 to thank them after WWII (I'm fairly sure Dick Button and BA Scott were not affiliated to any european association).

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I never heard of any FS fans devaluing the OGM until Michelle Kwan failed to win one in two different Olympic tries. (No, I'm not bashing. But it's true.)
    I've heard plenty of people devalue the OGM wins of Trixi Schuba ('72), Anett Pötzsch ('80), Viktor Petrenko ('92), and Oksana Baiul ('94), all before Kwan was an Olympic contender.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I've heard plenty of people devalue the OGM wins of Trixi Schuba ('72), Anett Pötzsch ('80), Viktor Petrenko ('92), and Oksana Baiul ('94), all before Kwan was an Olympic contender.
    And Alexei Urmanov in 1994

  4. #44
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    I believe that most Olympic and world championships are worth the same. Because no matter what sort of field you are in, u always had to work yourself all the way to the top. I mean although this past season hasn't been the strongest season, we have still seen skaters like Carolina, Alena and Akiko fight their way to the top like every other champion. So even if the standard is lower the in previous season, there are still those that are true champions that deserve the same gold medal as previous champions

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    I believe that most Olympic and world championships are worth the same. Because no matter what sort of field you are in, u always had to work yourself all the way to the top. I mean although this past season hasn't been the strongest season, we have still seen skaters like Carolina, Alena and Akiko fight their way to the top like every other champion. So even if the standard is lower the in previous season, there are still those that are true champions that deserve the same gold medal as previous champions
    In total agreement with sk8ingcoach. They all work hard to achieve the ultimate gold. It is not their fault if the field happens to be weak or other competitors choke at the wrong time. That is reality. Right time, right place, right skate. Happens many times in figure skating and other sports.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheylana View Post
    Die-hard skating fans: Not equal
    Normal people: Equal
    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    I am NORMAL.
    And I'm "odd," so bear with me.

    There's nothing equal about Olympic and World titles or medals, or not ever winning an Olympic or World title (or medals), especially with the talent and deep fields that exist in all of sport these days. And of course there is nothing equal about ISU judging either.

    In winning or placing, luck is always involved. And as a skater or athlete if you didn't have talent, you wouldn't be competing on a big stage anyway -- of course, many with talent don't ever quite make it to the biggest stages, especially some U.S. skaters who b/c of the large talent pool can't quite make it out of Nationals.

    Winning (as has been said many times) is icing on the cake, or pie. Take your pick. For me, the Olympics these days is over-rated because of the over-commercialization and cultural image-making (which are all faux). I will watch though to enjoy the athletes and sports I enjoy watching. And I'll largely ignore the fs judging.

    The best moments are not necessarily on the podium. The joy and satisfaction is probably more in overcoming challenges, skating your best, coming from behind to reach the podium when you're down and out, reaching personal goals. Taking a risk and successfully skating to something unexpected. Making an impact on the sport, or just making your Nationals, or making Worlds for the first time, or seeing a student of yours (if you are a coach) skate their best and achieve success.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Thank you for the explanation. That's what Ive read in a canadian book (Figure Skating, a History). But maybe they were just talking about 1947 and 1948 editions. The book says they allowed North american skaters to compete in 1947 and 1948 to thank them after WWII (I'm fairly sure Dick Button and BA Scott were not affiliated to any european association).
    I found another version saying Euros were open to any ISU member before 1948, but the first one seems more appropriate considering the source (Skating in america by Benjamin T. Wright). I don't see how it would had been a problem to Scott and Button ton subscribe also under the british federation. Vinson did it in 1934 (still Wright's word). I don't know any rule saying you can't be affiliated to more than one. It's clear they would have not represented GBR.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I've heard plenty of people devalue the OGM wins of Trixi Schuba ('72), Anett Pötzsch ('80), Viktor Petrenko ('92), and Oksana Baiul ('94), all before Kwan was an Olympic contender.
    I think the poster was talking about devaluing the medal/title itself, not the winner. In those cases I think the tone was that the OGM is the biggest prize in skating but that those skaters didn't deserve it. In the case of Kwan the attitude from some of her fans was not so much that Kwan wuzrobbed (certainly not in 2002), but that the OGM is just one competition and not more important than Worlds.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by UGG View Post
    I think it depends on the impact, maybe? Take, for example, Kimmie Meissner's first world championship and Michelle Kwan's first world championship.

    Michelle's performances at those worlds shot her into another level above every one else she was competing against. She became IT. the one to beat. and then there is the whole "transformation" thing that some ladies have tried to do but it just always falls flat. (how many times do we see "this is her salome" and...its the same as what they were doing before). It was a legendary moment in skating.

    Kimmie's was very nice and exciting and she deserved to win and skated awesome, but there was really no impact made in the skating world and basically its just a nice story. LOL.

    As far as the Olympics go...lets look at Yuna and Sarah. Even though Yuna is a much better and more decorated skater than Sarah Hughes...I would again say that Sarah's win is more legendary. It has everything that the Olympics are made of-drama, underdog winning, all that stuff. Any time someone performs as the underdog at the Olympics...chances are Sarah will be mentioned in reference to the "anything can happen at the Olympics" scenario.
    How often does an underdog win in the Olympics as opposed to the expected winner? I'm not sure about the case of Yuna vs. Sarah.

    The odds were also not so favorable to Yuna. Crushing expectations at the biggest competitions often undo the top dogs as well, and not just in figure skating. But to turn around and put on the best performance of your life when everyone expects you to do so is no small feat.

    Sarah's win is not quite as legendary as you might say--the top dogs at SLC faltered. Had they actually put up a good fight and Sarah still outskated them, then I could see you point. But she was purely lucky. Luck is not the stuff of legends.

  10. #50
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    The OGM has historically and traditionally been built up to be the end all and be all for every athlete. For athletes, the Olympics only comes around every four years (except during the anomaly '92 and '94 years when they were in the process of separating Summer and Winter Olympics to alternate every two years, instead of taking place in the same year every four years).

    Probably if you ask most athletes, particularly skaters (who have only had one chance at a medal, unlike some other sports) -- they will still say the OGM is their dream, or for many, just making the Olympic team and being able to compete on that stage. Figure skating is too full of politics traditionally, so there will always be debate about who won who shouldn't have won, and therefore discussion of who's win should be valued less. No matter what we think, likely them who hold the medals and the moments feel the richer and at what anyone else thinks. Except maybe for Plush who seems to have something more to prove, despite the fact he already has one OGM -- and of course the silver, which he devalued.

    For Kwan, the Kween -- OGM will always be the one that got away. But she will always have the moment in Nagano '98 coming off the ice crying her eyes out because she actually thought she had won (which she recently admitted in an ESPN interview). Kwan gave her all and many will always feel she deserved to win in Nagano, and there are others who will always feel Tara was better. The judges were divided, and the German judge's opinion was the decider. It was debated endlessly for days afterward in the media, and has never stopped being debated among figure skating fans. Tara and Michelle were/ are both winners. Michelle rose above the deep disappointments of Nagano, Salt Lake (and even of her 2006 injury). Kwan TOWERS above everyone in her accomplishments on and off the ice. For me, there is a lesson in Kwan's journey, especially post-1998.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Kwan gave her all and many will always feel she deserved to win in Nagano, and there are others who will always feel Tara was better. The judges were divided, and the German judge's opinion was the decider.
    If that had been the case, then Kwan would have won. Jan Hoffmann gave 5.8/5.8 to Lipinski and 5.7/5.9 to Kwan, the same marks he gave Kerrigan and Baiul, respectively, in 1994.
    I can call the moon a pear, but it doesn't make it so. -- kwanfan1818

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    The Olympic Gold is certainly the most important prize in figure skating. Why?

    1) Because the Olympics are every elite athlete's dream. (Have you ever heard an elite figure skater say: "nah, the Olympics are no big deal..." ???)

    2) Because the Olys are the highest pressure event for any athlete.

    3) Because the Olys get 20 times more press and viewership than any World Championship event.

    4) Because Olympic Gold Medalists are privy to very high endorsement deals.

    There are many more reasons. Obviously, not all Olympic Gold Medalists are the best in their sport, but they delivered when it counted and, under that kind of pressure, that counts for a great deal.

    I never heard of any FS fans devaluing the OGM until Michelle Kwan failed to win one in two different Olympic tries. (No, I'm not bashing. But it's true.)
    You can still win the Olympics without being a great skater. Even the flat out mediocre Rosalynn Sumnerzzzzz was .1 from winning the Olympic Gold, and that was skating at only about 55% of her potential on that night. Meanwhile you can be a great skater and never win Olympic Gold.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    The judges were divided, and the German judge's opinion was the decider.
    Tara received six 1st-place ordinals to Michelle's three, so the judges weren't that divided.

  14. #54

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    I think, to the athletes, the OGM has a satisfaction that goes with it that is unrelated to the commercial value of the title.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    ...
    I never heard of any FS fans devaluing the OGM until Michelle Kwan failed to win one in two different Olympic tries. (No, I'm not bashing. But it's true.)
    No Canadians devalued the OGM when Kurt Browning failed to win one in two different Oly tries?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    No Canadians devalued the OGM when Kurt Browning failed to win one in two different Oly tries?
    They would have if Elvis won gold and Kurt silver!

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I think, to the athletes, the OGM has a satisfaction that goes with it that is unrelated to the commercial value of the title.
    Ding, ding, ding!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    You can still win the Olympics without being a great skater. Even the flat out mediocre Rosalynn Sumnerzzzzz was .1 from winning the Olympic Gold, and that was skating at only about 55% of her potential on that night. Meanwhile you can be a great skater and never win Olympic Gold.
    I agree that you can be a great skater, and never win Olympic gold, but you have to be a great skater to win. Maybe you don't have to be the GREATEST skater to win, but you still have to be somewhat great.

  19. #59
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    Thanks falling_dance and duane. Actually, falling_dance, I was thinking of 1994 ladies Olympic results when I referred to Jan Hoffman -- my BAD.

    As far as Nagano results, when it all came out in the wash, yes there was a lot of division and excuse-making after the fact re the scoring. The media even tried to paint it that Michelle made a mistake in her fp before the final aired on tape in prime time. When everyone saw how graciously Kwan carried herself after the gold slipped out of her grasp (especially when she was expected to win OGM after her perfection in Philadelphia), the media backtracked a bit on all the OTT “Tara wins” articles -- I remember one article which errantly trumpeted that athleticism now rules when it comes to figure skating. It never has and it never will no matter what. Anyway, why the 5.9s for Tara for artistic presentation -- her second mark should have been more like five 5.8s and four 5.7s. Even Tara's technical marks were way too high and Michelle’s way too low (Hamilton suspected MK’s low tech marks were partly because MK skated first in the last group). Tara was a superbly talented and determined young athlete, but as a former roller skater she never had good technique or height on her 2-axel. And at the age of 15, Tara had not fully developed as a skater or a person.

    Ah well, water under the bridge that yet continues to rise at high tide. Looking back, what nostalgia. And wow, that earth-shattering scream which surely caused permanent ear-drum damage for everyone in the vicinity.

    Nice to see Tara has grown up to be a well-spoken and adept fs commentator. The same cannot be said for Sarah (her voice and timing are terrible). MK doesn't do much commentating, and what little she has done is middling. But at least MK's voice quality and sense of humor are outstanding. And as has been said before: After Nagano, MK turned silver into gold.

  20. #60
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    I will never understand Tara's presentation marks in Nagano, particularly since she received higher presentation marks than Chen Lu. Something is seriously wrong with that, IMO.

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