View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past champions

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  • Lu Chen

    18 5.96%
  • Michelle Kwan

    10 3.31%
  • Tara Lipinski

    79 26.16%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    11 3.64%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    37 12.25%
  • Mao Asada

    12 3.97%
  • Yu-Na Kim

    10 3.31%
  • Carolina Kostner

    125 41.39%
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I'm with you on that, you know.
    I'm so sad few of us see how amazing Carolina is.

    Anyway, even if I'm an MK fan (and a Caro fan), I feel something for Tara, and her 1997 Worlds SP&LP will always be in my best memories.
    ... Caro is lucky she even made it this far after getting saved by one poster in round two and has consistently been the second choice every round to get booted off until this round. She's long due to go even if she has some amazing qualities to her skating.

    Unfortunately, we're in a judged sport and Caro has failed to deliver multiple times and has even resorted to diluting her jump content. She's fallen out of the top 10 at Worlds numerous times, which can't be said of any of the other champions on (and who were previously on) this list. She also has the lowest Olympics placement of all the champions who were listed in round one. If her skating wasn't so decent, she would have been booted off a long time ago.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    Well then maybe it's time for you to double check & take a proper look at some of her programs again Like her Worlds SPs from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 or 2008. Or her Worlds FPs from 2005, 2010, 2011 & 2012. Not to mention her signature pieces to Shostakovich or Mozart this year.

    Again, I want to say that I can see why Carolina is being voted off now. I still think though that a lot of people here make her look far worse than she actually is.
    You think her Worlds LP in 2005 was impressive. She didnt land any clean jumps in the 2nd half of her program, and was a ragdoll flying around the rink at that point (though at the end of her program when she ran out of energy and started missing every jump she tried, she also became increasingly slow). Even an aging Kwan with a mediocre mistake filled and COP unfriendly LP beat her in the LP at those Worlds, only losing the bronze due to the Q round.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

    Chen is still better.
    See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

    But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me, not to mention the rest period followed by the wobbly flat edged straight line spirals.

  4. #84

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    I thought Kostner's 2005 LP was fabulous. 2 mistakes - she fell out of a 3sal at the back end of a combo, although her seat never touched the ice, and she had a slight step out on a 2axel at the very end of the program. And she did double a loop. Her footwork and spins (in both directions) were wonderful. I gave her bonus points for skating to Prokofiev's piano concerto #3. I certainly don't remember her missing every jump she tried. Kwan beat her in the LP by less than a point.

    And this from a huge Kwan fan, and I wasn't a particular fan of Kostner in 2005, although I've grown into a big fan now.
    Last edited by pollyanna; 06-20-2012 at 01:03 AM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Carolina does have better skating skills than Chen Lu or almost anyone. Better jumping skills though? Chen has better jumping skills based on her ability to peel off 6 or 7 triple programs with a 2nd triple lutz repeatedly from 93-96.
    I agree with this. But after that 96 season, which was not very strong except for her brilliant Worlds performances, she was never the same skater. I can throw away 96-97 since Li Mingzhu and her fed were abusing her. But her comeback in 97-98 showed us a very much weaker skater, jumps that were not there or UR'd and she never had strong spins. I nervously rooted for her to get bronze at Nagano and was pleased, but except for her exceptional choreography and je nes se quois, I really think Maria outskated her, considering all of Lu Chen's under-rotations and poor spins, and weak carriage.

    Still, I find it hard for a WC in 2012 to compete with Katarina Witt level jumps. I mean, just bring back Yuka Sato, who can skate circles around Kostner if all she had to do were sals and toes (and Yuka had a consistent loop). It's hard to judge Kostner, because her jumps are sooooo not what you would expect after 1989. Yet now she is WC. She is the weakest link.
    I will not be ignored! -Me

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

    But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me, not to mention the rest period followed by the wobbly flat edged straight line spirals.
    Blasphemy. I can't believe there's someone who is bashing Lulu's artistry, even if everyone is entitled to their opinion... But yeah, quite honestly, everyone's favorite LP ever from Lulu was to Rachmaninoff, but I personally liked her Last Emperor and Butterfly Lovers a lot better.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Blasphemy. I can't believe there's someone who is bashing Lulu's artistry, even if everyone is entitled to their opinion...
    I know! I knew that wouldn't be a popular opinion.

  8. #88
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    I wanted to say that I admire Carolina for never giving up and finally reaching the top. After the 2009 Worlds, I was really exasperated with her - she had skated so many meltdown LPs at that point, I wasn't sure why she still thought she could pull of two clean programs. She lost one of Italy's berths to the Olympics, got it instead of Valentina, and then skated poorly again at the Olympics, which made me pretty angry. At that point I had written her off, but she came back and skated a beautiful program at the 2010 Worlds (and I was bummed CoP's ludicrous UR rules lowered her technical scores too much).

    She did win 2012 Worlds, and I think it's incredible she kept it sticking it out, even though I was pretty sure she would never have done it back in 2009. I do admire her as a competitor.

    With that said, I also agree she should have been eliminated much earlier. She won several European titles, but the European women haven't been strong in awhile. I don't think she deserved her two World medals in 2005 and 2008 either - I can't believe she won a medal in 2008 over Nakano. If she skates cleanly or near cleanly with full jump content, the judges aremore than ready to put her on par with a top-notch Asada or Kim. I'm personally not a fan of her style, which explains why I would have her eliminated before Ando, but that's just my subjective preferences.

    Overall, I still really admire her for sticking it out and proving everyone wrong.

  9. #89
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    Caro has a really nice jumps, even if she's not exactly 100% consistent with them.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by casken View Post
    See, other than the two beautiful lutzes that Chen did, Kostner's skate for me is the superior one.

    But then again I never loved that program from Chen the way other people do, especially compared to almost every single LP she did as an eligible skater. The way she trails the music during the footwork sequence and misses the music when she does the leap at the end of it always bothered me
    I love Lu and I definitely think she deserves to be here at least another week or two, but ITA about that step sequence. Almost everything in that LP is gorgeous and expresses the music wonderfully, but the step sequence sticks out like a sore thumb as she prances around completely missing the dramatic pauses in the cadenza. It's actually one of the main reasons I prefer Kwan's LP that year. Well, that and the spins

  11. #91
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    Sandra Bezic's biggest weakness as a choreographer was creating step sequences. The patterns she created tended to be stuck in the corner of the rink and the patterns tended to be very shallow.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I don't think she deserved her two World medals in 2005 and 2008 either - I can't believe she won a medal in 2008 over Nakano. If she skates cleanly or near cleanly with full jump content, the judges aremore than ready to put her on par with a top-notch Asada or Kim.
    Kostner medaling over Kwan was ridiculous but her silver medal in 2008 was the biggest joke of all time. To think she was less than a point away from winning! They wanted to give her that title no matter what that year. The judging panel literally had ONE judge that wasn't European. Let's face it. If Kostner was not Italian, she would have been another Sarah Meier- i.e. middle of the pack skater that isn't really champion material. It's like once Speedy realized there was an Italian girl who had all the triples, the deal was done. Most overmarked skater ever.

    That said, I didn't vote for her in any round.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    I agree with this. But after that 96 season, which was not very strong except for her brilliant Worlds performances, she was never the same skater. I can throw away 96-97 since Li Mingzhu and her fed were abusing her. But her comeback in 97-98 showed us a very much weaker skater, jumps that were not there or UR'd and she never had strong spins. I nervously rooted for her to get bronze at Nagano and was pleased, but except for her exceptional choreography and je nes se quois, I really think Maria outskated her, considering all of Lu Chen's under-rotations and poor spins, and weak carriage.

    Still, I find it hard for a WC in 2012 to compete with Katarina Witt level jumps. I mean, just bring back Yuka Sato, who can skate circles around Kostner if all she had to do were sals and toes (and Yuka had a consistent loop). It's hard to judge Kostner, because her jumps are sooooo not what you would expect after 1989. Yet now she is WC. She is the weakest link.
    Agree with Chen in 1998. She wasn't half the skater she used to be. When she was in top form, the delay in her jumps was beautiful. In 1998 it just led to under-rotations. Fortunately, Butyrskaya didn't help her own case by landing all jumps stiffly and with the free foot extremely low and failing to do even one combination jump.

    For the record, Kostner did not win with Witt level jumps. She won with a 3flip, a 3loop, 3toe3toe and 2axel3toe. I don't recall Witt ever executing more than 1 of the above in the same competition.

    Re: Kostner vs Sato - Sato was a great skater but many of her big jumps in 1994 were under-rotated and she would struggle to add a 2toe which would be so tiny. She would never have loops and flips, or combination jumps, of Kostner's quality.

  14. #94
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    LOL at the talk of Kwan being robbed in 2005. As you can tell by my other comments I am not a Kostner backer but except for her short program Kwan sucked at the 2005 Worlds, and even her loyal fans have said as much. Why anyone would argue she was robbed of a medal. Kostner probably should have finished further ahead of her than she did. In the short program she was the only one to skate cleanly with a triple-triple and her short was actually quite beautiful, she should have won the short program ahead of Slutskaya, Cohen, and Kwan, with Irina and Sasha's mistakes, even though Michelle did a pretty good short, but still deliberate and trying to get the levels right. Her long program wasnt that strong, but Michelle's boring Bolero with major mistakes, lower level elements, and only 4 triples completed, wasnt any better, and she was lucky to edge Kostner in that program. Her Q round rightfully put her behind, and she was already scored generously enough compared to Kostner in the other 2 programs, and still didnt pass her.

    2008 is a different story. Gift of the century there, and the judges were definitely salivating to give her the gold. Before Worlds everyone thought it was Kim or Asada's to lose but it turned out it was Kostner's to lose all along with that panel, hence nearly winning with about 5 mistakes in her long program, and winning the short over a clean Asada with a missed triple lutz.

    I also agree Chen's bronze in 98 was a gift. Even with their more glaring technical mistakes that night the Russian girls were still technically far stronger than her at that point with her weak spins, non existent footwork, and sloppy, barely rotated, stalked, or underrotated jumps. I would have given her no more than a 5.4 for technical merit in the long program even if she mostly landed her jumps sort of clean, and had 2 triple lutzes. I also agree with the judge who gave her only a 4.9 for required elements in the short program. Such weak elements compared to the other top girls, even if she got all 8 done.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 06-20-2012 at 05:32 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Lets compare Chen's best to Kostner's (thus far) best:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONViuMXi2nE

    Chen is still better. So even the "Kostner at her best" doesnt help her compared to Chen, if we also assume Chen at her best.
    Why did you pick those two particular performances ?
    Anyway, you only care about quantity of jumps.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Why did you pick those two particular performances ?
    Anyway, you only care about quantity of jumps.
    LOL no I dont. If I only cared about jump content I would say Leonova should have won Worlds last year but I havent and wouldnt in a million years. Chen's program was an artistic masterpiece which got two 6.0s for artistry, and which many felt she was robbed of not winning even vs a clean and inspired Kwan who threw in an extra triple. Kostner has never done a program that would get 6.0s for artistic impression at a World event. The only things possibly better about Kostner's performance would be spins and spirals, but really not much better. Kostner also isnt a great spinner as I already mentioned, and her layback isnt as good as Chen's, and Chen had fairly good spirals as well.

    I chose those two performances since those were their best ever performances. If you disagree then post Kostner's best ever performance in a long program. People in the Chen vs Kostner comparision bring up "I know she is inconsistent but Kostner at her best..." and the above clips just show even her best (a real best which she has had a decade to try and show, not a hypothetical best if she did her 2008 jump content cleanly with her 2011 programs, with this and that, all combined, etc...) is not better if we compare to Chen's best as well.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    LOL at the talk of Kwan being robbed in 2005. As you can tell by my other comments I am not a Kostner backer but except for her short program Kwan sucked at the 2005 Worlds, and even her loyal fans have said as much. Why anyone would argue she was robbed of a medal. Kostner probably should have finished further ahead of her than she did. In the short program she was the only one to skate cleanly with a triple-triple and her short was actually quite beautiful, she should have won the short program ahead of Slutskaya, Cohen, and Kwan, with Irina and Sasha's mistakes, even though Michelle did a pretty good short, but still deliberate and trying to get the levels right. Her long program wasnt that strong, but Michelle's boring Bolero with major mistakes, lower level elements, and only 4 triples completed, wasnt any better, and she was lucky to edge Kostner in that program. Her Q round rightfully put her behind, and she was already scored generously enough compared to Kostner in the other 2 programs, and still didnt pass her.

    2008 is a different story. Gift of the century there, and the judges were definitely salivating to give her the gold. Before Worlds everyone thought it was Kim or Asada's to lose but it turned out it was Kostner's to lose all along with that panel, hence nearly winning with about 5 mistakes in her long program, and winning the short over a clean Asada with a missed triple lutz.

    I also agree Chen's bronze in 98 was a gift. Even with their more glaring technical mistakes that night the Russian girls were still technically far stronger than her at that point with her weak spins, non existent footwork, and sloppy, barely rotated, stalked, or underrotated jumps. I would have given her no more than a 5.4 for technical merit in the long program even if she mostly landed her jumps sort of clean, and had 2 triple lutzes. I also agree with the judge who gave her only a 4.9 for required elements in the short program. Such weak elements compared to the other top girls, even if she got all 8 done.
    I have only highlighted portions that I want to talk about.

    In 2005 worlds Kwan had a poor QR, but she had very good SP and LP. It's not that Kwan sucked, but the judges chose to ignore the flaws in Kostner's performance, and overmarked CK. It was clearly Kwan's fault that she did not deliver in the QR, but with fair judging she would have placed higher than CK overall. At that time Carolina was still gawky/coltish, and not the artist she is today, while MK was a great artist.

    In 1998 Oly Chen Lu won partly because Maria was the first to skate overall in the SP, which as per Hamilton is 'Kiss of death'. Maria was so far behind entering LP- she did make the final group for LP-that she had to have a great skate to beat Chen Lu's emotional, though imperfect performance. Maria was the last skater, who faced pressure to have a great performance. She was never the artist that Lulu was. She made some mistakes and pretty much missed out on the bronze. I don't think Chen Lu was gifted by the judges, but there was some luck involved there. Considering what Lulu had been through, people were happy for her.

  18. #98
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    I woudnt quite agree Kwan had a very good LP in 2005. She had only 4 clean triples, a fall, a 2 foot landing, numerous lower level non jump elements so her program wasnt COP friendly yet, and was skating to that awful Bolero program which is by far her most drab, uninspiring, and poorly choreographed program ever IMHO. I cant believe Christopher Dean created it.

  19. #99
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    I thought Maria Butyrskaya was 3rd going into the long program at Nagano?? Chen Lu got some awful tech scores and Irina Slutskaya did a double-double combination. (Surya Bonaly was 6th after the SP)

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