Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Pairs Round 1 Reloaded

[Proustable]

I am surprised to see Sale & Pelletier to be so high on the list.
Although they were never my favorites, I expected them to have quite a few followers.

Both of their titles provoke controversy, to say the least.

[judgejudy27]

Beautiful. I love her extensions and pointed toes. It just goes to show how beautiful a lift can be when the skater does not catch her foot (COP style), and the simple death spirals are so much more effective for interpreting music, than the 'change of hands/catch foot death spirals which make me sick). Nice unison too.

I wonder why they did not skate this in 1998? With a clean skate may be they could have won an Olympic spot. I really miss this pair. They do lack extroverted passion in their skating, but they make up for it with the finer points.

The ironic thing is if Shishkova & Naumov had made it then Kazahkova & Dmitriev are the ones who would have missed out on the Olympics, and they are the ones who ended up as the OGM that year. I heard that S&N had a clean free skate at Nationals that year too but unfortunately so did Eltsova & Bushkov and Kazahkova & Dmitriev (B&S had a mistake but placed 2nd). E&B had the best Worlds results of any Russian pair that quad, and B&S were the dominant pair that season so those two were pretty much a lock. A better program might have helped S&N but they lost an Olympic spot with all the injuries and off performances before the Russian Nationals mostly, more than what they did a the event itself.

[sk8ingcoach]

Apparently not in that poster's opinion...

Yeah but how could someone think that they are the weakest ????

[judgejudy27]

Hopefully Sale & Pelletier get voted out next round.

[SamuraiK]

Kazakova & Dmitriev are first skater/team to go through a whole round without a single vote

[Vash01]

I can almost predict the final result in each of these survivor threads. In pairs it will come down to S&Z vs. S&S (although neither is on my list for 'best').

In men, it's a given that Yagudin will win.

In ladies it will come down to Michelle and Yu na.

In ice dance it will come down to V&M vs. D&W.

[judgejudy27]

I can almost predict the final result in each of these survivor threads. In pairs it will come down to S&Z vs. S&S (although neither is on my list for 'best').

In men, it's a given that Yagudin will win.

In ladies it will come down to Michelle and Yu na.

In ice dance it will come down to V&M vs. D&W.

I think the ladies is hard to call at this point. You could be right but I wouldnt count Slutskaya or Asada out yet. Slutskaya has won all the rounds so far.

Of the pairs on the list, which are missing most of the all the all time greats anyway, I would rate S&Z and S&S in the top 4. B&S are way better than both, and T&M are better than S&S atleast IMO (although I know that isnt a popular opinion, I have no idea why though, S&S couldnt even challenge an old S&Z who were able to cakewalk to a season of dominance as grannies in their return which shows to me how S&S would have fared in past eras).

[Vash01]

I think the ladies is hard to call at this point. You could be right but I wouldnt count Slutskaya or Asada out yet. Slutskaya has won all the rounds so far.

Of the pairs on the list, which are missing most of the all the all time greats anyway, I would rate S&Z and S&S in the top 4. B&S are way better than both, and T&M are better than S&S atleast IMO (although I know that isnt a popular opinion, I have no idea why though, S&S couldnt even challenge an old S&Z who were able to cakewalk to a season of dominance as grannies in their return which shows to me how S&S would have fared in past eras).

S&S are very popular on this board. It could be because they are flashier than T&M. I would put B&S and T&M higher than either S&S or S&Z (another very popular pair on this board), but I suspect both T&M and B&S will be eliminated before the other two. I wish we had G&G and M&D on this list, although I think some of the newer posters never saw them compete at their peak, so they may not even hold them high in their esteem. At some point we may need a survivor thread for the oldies. I miss the old pairs skating, including B&S's.

[judgejudy27]

S&S try to be innovative. I give them that. They also have very big throws, inventive lifts. They dont have the consistency, technical precision, or quality of spins, death spirals, or solid jumping technique of past champions though, and their triple twist isnt very good either. Artistically they are original but too many mistakes to be of full effect 97% of the time, and they dont have the polish, perfection, or chemistry of the past greatest pairs either. Compared to T&M I can see why they are more enjoyable to watch to many people, but they really arent as good, and if both teams competed in their primes T&M would dominate. Look at how much trouble S&S often have even beating P&T, who T&M could always beat in their sleep, and how S&S found it impossible to compete with an old S&Z, kind of embarassing for the so called dominant pair of the era. It just shows how they stack up to some real competition.

[casken]

I could never watch T&M do a lift without wincing. His footwork was never great to start with, and only got worse after the accident.

Even when Tikhonov was about to keel over from a heart attack past the three minute mark, he still had more stable feet than Marinin. Everything else they did was so pure and precise that it made there lifts all the more jarring. (The triple twist too)

Ease and flow of lifts is a big thing for me in pairs skating. It's part of the reason why I think S&N and E&B are a bit underrated.

When does this first round of voting end anyway?

[Alex Forrest]

I could never watch T&M do a lift without wincing. His footwork was never great to start with, and only got worse after the accident.

Even when Tikhonov was about to keel over from a heart attack past the three minute mark, he still had more stable feet than Marinin. Everything else they did was so pure and precise that it made there lifts all the more jarring. (The triple twist too)

Ease and flow of lifts is a big thing for me in pairs skating. It's part of the reason why I think S&N and E&B are a bit underrated.

I must agree with this. As someone who was on the front row at Pittsburgh Skate America and watched that crash happen right in front of me, I was not surprised. My friends and I even commented to each other that something was up during warm-up. Something was eerie, one of them might have been sick or had vertigo or ANYTHING, but when they took the ice I at least was prepared for a disaster. Their horrendous crash was not a surprise. I could never get into their skating, they had great basics, but no. Don't make me afraid for your safety and your lives. And that went with the Zhangs too. And there was another Chinese pair that scared me too. Not S/Z or P/T, another one where their attempted skills were scary dangerous.

[judgejudy27]

True T&M had pretty bad lifts. I cant argue that. I just feel the overall package was still superior to someone like S/S. As lifts are the pinnacle of pairs skating in a way though, I can more readily see people ranking T&M downwards for that reason more easily than the usual "they are boring, etc..." stuff.

[casken]

And there was another Chinese pair that scared me too. Not S/Z or P/T, another one where their attempted skills were scary dangerous.

Actually I get nervous when S&Z do lifts too. I've seen his foot slip on the take off more than a few times.

[Cherub721]

True T&M had pretty bad lifts. I cant argue that. I just feel the overall package was still superior to someone like S/S. As lifts are the pinnacle of pairs skating in a way though, I can more readily see people ranking T&M downwards for that reason more easily than the usual "they are boring, etc..." stuff.

Yeah, at least lifts are a valid technical criticism and it's not all "oh, she never smiled!"

I think S&S are getting to the point that they are as good/better than T&M. The only advantage I see for T&M at this point is the sbs 3sal. But those conversations should be for later cause those two teams deserve to make it far here (I guess S&S, K&D, B&S, T&M and S&Z top 5).

[judgejudy27]

Atleast S&S have gotten more consistent. It was boring seeing them dominate in 2008-2009 with flawed programs and falls repeatedly over practically a nothing field with a technical only team clearly past their technical peak in the Zhangs and an erratic and slumping Pang & Tong as their only "competition". I think the emergence of V&T has made them pull up their socks.

[shady82]

S&S try to be innovative. I give them that. They also have very big throws, inventive lifts. They dont have the consistency, technical precision, or quality of spins, death spirals, or solid jumping technique of past champions though, and their triple twist isnt very good either. Artistically they are original but too many mistakes to be of full effect 97% of the time, and they dont have the polish, perfection, or chemistry of the past greatest pairs either. Compared to T&M I can see why they are more enjoyable to watch to many people, but they really arent as good, and if both teams competed in their primes T&M would dominate. Look at how much trouble S&S often have even beating P&T, who T&M could always beat in their sleep, and how S&S found it impossible to compete with an old S&Z, kind of embarassing for the so called dominant pair of the era. It just shows how they stack up to some real competition.

I don't think it's accurate to say that the S&S in 2006 and in 2010 are the same. S&S have improved dramatically since 2006, to the point where a clean S&S should place ahead of a clean T&M IMO. They have more difficult/larger throws and twists, more innovative choreography, and strong quality in their other elements as well.

Of course, S&S don't often skate two clean programs, so that's where the issue comes in.

I agree that T&M are underrated. The quality and consistency they possess is outstanding, though artistically I wouldn't call any of their LPs 'great programs'.

[judgejudy27]

I was never comparing T&M and S&S of 2006 to each other. I am well aware the real S&S is 2008-today. I was comparing the fact S&Z could waltz back after being retired a few years, very very old for amateur skaters, and easily dominate S&S. Yet S&Z even fully healthy in the 2002-2003 and 2003-2004 seasons in fact had a losing record to T&M. S&Z could not make a mistake and still beat T&M after the SLC season, but against S&S they could make alot of them. Also looking at teams like Pang & Tong who S&S often lose to and who T&M never once lost to ever. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together and see what would happen with both teams in their primes. As you said who would win with both teams going clean is moot, since T&M always skate clean, and S&S cant to save their lives, although they have finally gotten a bit better with that.

[julieann]

By 2006 S/S had only been together for 2 seasons; T/M were together for 9, hardly comparable in terms of skating. S/Z were given too much credit in the Olympic season as far as scores go but Ingo made the biggest mistake of changing their free skate four months before the Olympics.

Also, I think no enough credit is given to skaters who are pushing or are in their 30's, there is no magical number where pair skaters suddenly are geriatrics.

[shady82]

S&Z could make a lot of mistakes against S&S? When? At the Olympics, they had a small point difference after the SP, and appropriately so. In the LP, S&Z skated clean with the exception of a botched lift, while S&S messed up multiple elements. Not to mention, that was a very poor season for S&S. If S&S skated like they did in past Worlds, it would be a hard comparison.

As for Sale & Pelletier, I can easily see why people consider them the worst Olympic pairs gold medalists in recent history, but one of the worst World champions? That's a stretch. I agree they shouldn't have won 2001, they were overmarked in both portions of the competition. At SLC, I thought either they or B&S could've won and it would make sense. Sort of like Kwan vs. Chen in 96 or Kwan vs. Lipinski in 98. There are other pairs who should go before them.

[Cherub721]

As for Sale & Pelletier, I can easily see why people consider them the worst Olympic pairs gold medalists in recent history, but one of the worst World champions? That's a stretch.

Maybe people are voting for them because they think they did not deserve to be champions at 2001 Worlds or 2002 Olympics and therefore shouldn't be on the list at all. I agree with you, they're not that bad, and I'm really surprised they have more votes than Pang/Tong or Pettikhs! Again, maybe people think S&P should've been strong silver medallists against B&S, while perhaps believing the P&Ts deserved their titles albeit in weaker fields. To me though, comparing them directly, S&P are definitely stronger than those teams and Woetzel/Steuer and shouldn't be getting voted out quite yet.

I'm far from an S&P fan, and I can't stand Jamie, but they had strong pairs elements and memorable programs. David was one of the strongest male pairs skaters in that generation. I would vote them off before some of the better Russians because of Jamie's inconsistency and ugly lines, but they should stick around a few more rounds.