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Thread: ISU Congress

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
    What I hate about this rule is that it does not allow the skater to put the spiral sequence/choreo moves sequence where it best fits the music. It must be after the step sequence.
    The problem is the technical panel needs to know which step sequence counts as a step sequence and which counts as the choreo step sequence...
    Most choreo step sequences don't have the technical requirements to get the levels, so it is important that they are evaluated for what they are.

    I do agree with you that it make it harder to structure your program to fit the music, but I myself can't see away around the requirement that the choreo has to be the second step sequence... :S?

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    The problem is the technical panel needs to know which step sequence counts as a step sequence and which counts as the choreo step sequence...
    Would be nice if they'd call it based on the planned program content sheet (I mean- what is the point of those)- but they don't. They level the first one regardless.
    Last edited by Skittl1321; 06-25-2012 at 07:32 PM.

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    It's like the people of the ISU don't know how the halfway bonus is being used in the free skate! No one does any jumps in the last minute or 30 seconds. It is all right at the halfway point! All SP jumps done for bonus will be done at exactly 1:25 just like in free skates it is 2:00 or 2:15. If its more than 1 the times will be 1:25 and 1:28 and so on. However long it takes a skater to set up the next jump. No one in the coming season will do a SP jump at 2:20 or 30. You wont see that at all!!

  4. #284

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    [QUOTE=Skittl1321;3603416]
    Quote Originally Posted by AusTechSpec View Post
    The problem is the technical panel needs to know which step sequence counts as a step sequence and which counts as the choreo step sequence.../QUOTE]

    Would be nice if they'd call it based on the planned program content sheet (I mean- what is the point of those)- but they don't. They level the first one regardless.
    The trouble is that you don't have to follow your planned content sheet you submitted. I know that most skaters do, but they are some skaters who either forget program and then they improvise, or others who mess up one element and then they completely reorganise jumps within the program. From this reason they have top mark what the skater actually did on the ice, not what he/she planned to do.

    Your question - what's the point of the planned program content sheet - I don't really know. If the skater doesn't have to follow it, why do they have to submit it?

  5. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Your question - what's the point of the planned program content sheet - I don't really know. If the skater doesn't have to follow it, why do they have to submit it?
    Well, it makes it easier for the technical panel IF the skater attempts to stick to the plan -- at least in the order of types of elements even if they switch one jump for another, or even one spin for another.

    E.g., if the very first element is a step sequence, it's really useful for the callers and the video operator to know that in advance and not figure it out halfway through the sequence when they realize that all those edges and turns weren't just general choreography before the first jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, it makes it easier for the technical panel IF the skater attempts to stick to the plan -- at least in the order of types of elements even if they switch one jump for another, or even one spin for another.

    E.g., if the very first element is a step sequence, it's really useful for the callers and the video operator to know that in advance and not figure it out halfway through the sequence when they realize that all those edges and turns weren't just general choreography before the first jump.
    Great point! Very witty and clear. I suddenly get curious though, if a skater doesn't follow the order of contents that they have submitted, would it be one of occasions when judges and tech panels have extra hard time determining and scoring the performance causing a belated announcement?

  7. #287
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    Seems like in the case of a leveled sequences vs choreo sequence they could just tell you you have to stick to the plan... Maybe it doesn't need to come before the planned toe loop, but if you tell them the first is choreo, then whatever you do second is leveled.

  8. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    if a skater doesn't follow the order of contents that they have submitted, would it be one of occasions when judges and tech panels have extra hard time determining and scoring the performance causing a belated announcement?
    It could. Especially in situations (e.g., adult events in the US, novice FS a few years ago) where skaters have a choice between step sequence or spiral sequence.

    There are also alternatives in free dances but I'm not as familiar with dance details.

    If they just plain skate a completely different program with a completely different structure than the sheet indicates, maybe the panel will ignore the sheet and not have the asst. specialist pre-call what element to expect next.

    My impression for singles, which I'm most familiar with, has been that the delays after the program are usually caused by many elements that need video review (jump rotations, spin rotations, does the spin qualify for a certain feature or not -- I'm sure the latter is even more true of all the pair elements with levels.

    But sometimes skaters mess up an element in ways that makes it not count as the element they intended, and then there is confusion about how to call it.

    E.g., if a combo spin has too big a recentering or an extra step between the first and second foot and gets called as two separate spins, that affects not only that element but the numbering of all the subsequent elements and may affect whether a subsequent spin gets counted or asterisked out.

    Or if a skater falls on both non-axel jumps in a short program, there may be some discussion over which one to call as +COMBO and which as the solo jump (except in junior where the solo jump is specified).

  9. #289
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    I still the sequencing is dumb. Unlike with jumps/combos, where they can be changed on the fly -- and even that is relatively rare -- step and other sequences as elements (as opposed to adjusting content within them) are pretty much built into the program, and the skaters could declare ahead of time which was which. They already submit non-binding programs, no?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I still the sequencing is dumb. Unlike with jumps/combos, where they can be changed on the fly -- and even that is relatively rare -- step and other sequences as elements (as opposed to adjusting content within them) are pretty much built into the program, and the skaters could declare ahead of time which was which. They already submit non-binding programs, no?
    You wouldn't believe how often skaters change a segment of their step sequences or even whole segments of their programs half way through competing..

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    But if they declared which was which ahead of time, it could be binding and judged that way.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #292
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    I apologize if this has been covered--the level of detail in this thread is making my head hurt --but can't the technical panel just assign levels to both of the step sequences, then call the one with the lower level the choreographic sequence?
    Roll Tide, y'all!

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, it makes it easier for the technical panel IF the skater attempts to stick to the plan -- at least in the order of types of elements even if they switch one jump for another, or even one spin for another.

    E.g., if the very first element is a step sequence, it's really useful for the callers and the video operator to know that in advance and not figure it out halfway through the sequence when they realize that all those edges and turns weren't just general choreography before the first jump.
    Yes, but given that the skater doesn't have to stick to the plan AT ALL, the callers still need to evaluate everything anyway, including the very first element, right? They can't assume that anything in the plan is actually going to happen as planned, not even the very first element. So, how much does it really help for them to have the plan? This has bugged me for a while, actually. Does anyone on here happen to have experience as a caller?

    I know competitive skaters who don't bother updating their planned program sheets even if they change their choreography or planned elements throughout the season, because their coaches tell them the sheets don't matter and they can do whatever they want anyway. So, I imagine there are some very inaccurate sheets being handed in.

  14. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygirl View Post
    I apologize if this has been covered--the level of detail in this thread is making my head hurt --but can't the technical panel just assign levels to both of the step sequences, then call the one with the lower level the choreographic sequence?
    That would make sense. More work for the panel than not having to call one but no more than when there were two leveled sequences.

    Of course that would just encourage many skaters to plan two difficult sequences and hope they get a higher level on one of them.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Of course that would just encourage many skaters to plan two difficult sequences and hope they get a higher level on one of them.
    Which is just about the opposite of the intention of a choreographic sequence!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    But if they declared which was which ahead of time, it could be binding and judged that way.
    That would be very unfair. What happens when you change your feet too wide on your spin combination? At the moment they may call it as two spins and there is a chance that the last spin in your program may not be counted because that will suddenly be extra spin. If they were counting elements only according to the planned content sheet, both those spins would not be the combination you intended, so they would be wrong - possibly not counted. In addition, all your elements after that mistake would not be counted because every element would be one place further than on your list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That would be very unfair. What happens when you change your feet too wide on your spin combination? At the moment they may call it as two spins and there is a chance that the last spin in your program may not be counted because that will suddenly be extra spin. If they were counting elements only according to the planned content sheet, both those spins would not be the combination you intended, so they would be wrong - possibly not counted. In addition, all your elements after that mistake would not be counted because every element would be one place further than on your list.
    I think Kwanfan meant you just declare which step sequence is which (levelled or choreographic) in advance and you are held to that, not to the jumps or spins etc.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I think Kwanfan meant you just declare which step sequence is which (levelled or choreographic) in advance and you are held to that, not to the jumps or spins etc.
    Exactly.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  19. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That would be very unfair. What happens when you change your feet too wide on your spin combination? At the moment they may call it as two spins and there is a chance that the last spin in your program may not be counted because that will suddenly be extra spin. If they were counting elements only according to the planned content sheet, both those spins would not be the combination you intended, so they would be wrong - possibly not counted. In addition, all your elements after that mistake would not be counted because every element would be one place further than on your list.


    That would not happen. Often the Planned Element Sheet is not available or is not followed by the skater. The Tech Pannel must record what is skated and what they see. That why the program display has a space called "Planned Element" and one called "Executed".
    Morry Stillwell

  20. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    All of the non-jump elements, transitions, jump layout (less front-loaded programs), etc.



    This is what I fear as well.

    'Fully utilize the ice surface' does not sound specific enough to me.
    Eh, I'm not impressed by the current state of spins, flailing arm step sequences and a billion different steps between each element just to rack up points. As I said, my tastes are probably quite old fashioned, but I enjoy a simple one position spin over 3 "difficult" positions, and i see nothing wrong with crossovers, or more simple steps DONE WELL. We will have to agree to disagree

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