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Thread: ISU Congress

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    But it does have to come after the leveled sequence, which sometimes doesn't make sense with the music. So there really isn't a TON of choice.
    The choreographic sequence has to come after the step sequence for singles, but not for Pairs, which makes no sense for Ladies, where it has to include at least one spiral. While Men could, theoretically, use steps/turns/spinning movements only and avoid spirals/moves in the field/ unlisted jumps altogether, making it indistinguishable from the step sequence, there should be no question about which is which for the Ladies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The choreographic sequence has to come after the step sequence for singles, but not for Pairs, which makes no sense for Ladies, where it has to include at least one spiral. While Men could, theoretically, use steps/turns/spinning movements only and avoid spirals/moves in the field/ unlisted jumps altogether, making it indistinguishable from the step sequence, there should be no question about which is which for the Ladies.
    But in the step sequence to get a good level, there has to be a lot of upper body movement, so there is a chance that some lady would do a few spiral-like positions (although not too long ones) and then the judges could be confused, in theory, which sequence is choreographic and which step sequence.

  3. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    i think having to have the choreo sequence after the step sequence certainly limits things. the choices of music that will fit this will be less, or will mean we will have to endure awful chops of music. People already whinge that every program looks the same.. bla bla bla.
    The Choreo Steps have already been in place for the Mens FS over the past season and I think they worked really well. There was a lot more freedom in the steps the guys did because they were not constrained by having to try and up the technical difficulty of an element. I wouldn't be so quick to be negative about this one until we have seen some programs with it.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Men is just different...When they used to have two step sequences the execution of the second one was difficult due to fatigue. It made sense to have the ultra technical one be first and a second one with an emphasis on choreography, and the rule about the order kept the guesswork out of which was which. Freeing...probably.

    But for women this is not freeing. The section of music usually chosen for spirals is not your typical footwork music, and the softer flowy section of music is usually in the beginning or middle of your program. So if you want to show off your spirals during the choreo seq this would mean, for most skaters, doing both your footwork and your choreo sequence earlier in your program, pushing your jumps and spins to the part of the program when you normally do your footwork. I know a lot of female skaters don't want to jump after they have gone all-out in there footwork. The other alternative is to do the choreo sequence mostly like a footwork with a spiral thrown in. I just don't see how that is good for the spirals or the footwork or the musicality of the program.

    I would have liked to see them give ladies a choice of choreographic spirals or choreographic steps. If you chose choreo spirals your leveled steps could be anywhere cause there woudn't be confusion. If you chose to do choreographic steps then your leveled footwork would have to come first to limit any confusion.

  5. #265
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    I can think of a few free programs where the spiral sequence came toward the end (after the footwork sequence) with dramatic effect:

    Nancy Kerrigan 1992 (and 1994, to a lesser extent)
    Michelle Kwan 1998
    Sasha Cohen 2004 "Robin" Lake version and 2006
    Mao Asada, 2011 / 2012

    I agree, flexibility on the order would've been better, but I think the skaters can make it work.

  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by n*ice mom View Post
    The section of music usually chosen for spirals is not your typical footwork music, and the softer flowy section of music is usually in the beginning or middle of your program.
    That is the music most people choose, not necessarily the rule. It is about being creative with the music.

    Buttle did a wonderful step sequence in a program once (I think it was Prokoviev) where the music was quite sporadic, with phrases of silence between the notes. And he still managed to pull off a wonderful step sequence to it.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by n*ice mom View Post
    Men is just different...When they used to have two step sequences the execution of the second one was difficult due to fatigue. It made sense to have the ultra technical one be first and a second one with an emphasis on choreography, and the rule about the order kept the guesswork out of which was which. Freeing...probably.

    But for women this is not freeing. The section of music usually chosen for spirals is not your typical footwork music, and the softer flowy section of music is usually in the beginning or middle of your program. So if you want to show off your spirals during the choreo seq this would mean, for most skaters, doing both your footwork and your choreo sequence earlier in your program, pushing your jumps and spins to the part of the program when you normally do your footwork. I know a lot of female skaters don't want to jump after they have gone all-out in there footwork. The other alternative is to do the choreo sequence mostly like a footwork with a spiral thrown in. I just don't see how that is good for the spirals or the footwork or the musicality of the program.

    I would have liked to see them give ladies a choice of choreographic spirals or choreographic steps. If you chose choreo spirals your leveled steps could be anywhere cause there woudn't be confusion. If you chose to do choreographic steps then your leveled footwork would have to come first to limit any confusion.
    I totally agree. And I wish they would just stop marginalizing the spirals more and more each season! What I hate about this rule is that it does not allow the skater to put the spiral sequence/choreo moves sequence where it best fits the music. It must be after the step sequence. Whoever decided this was a good idea, well, just wait. . . They'll be complaining two years from now that nobody skates to the music anymore and it's all because of IJS. Oh, and if the spiral sequence has been marginalized because of complaints of "cookie-cutter programs" then how much more cookie cutter will they be when everyone is doing the choreo sequence at the end of the program (which IS where everyone will end up doing it)?

    Incidentally, if I had to be subject to this rule for the 2012-2013 season, I would have to completely scrap my music, which is a piece that is rarely used and has been getting great responses from everyone who hears it. The first part is quiet, then 1/3 of the way into the music is the absolute perfect section for a spiral/choreo sequence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    The Choreo Steps have already been in place for the Mens FS over the past season and I think they worked really well. There was a lot more freedom in the steps the guys did because they were not constrained by having to try and up the technical difficulty of an element. I wouldn't be so quick to be negative about this one until we have seen some programs with it.
    Unfortunately, I tend to be negative about changes, as there has yet to be one thing about the programs that I think has improved since IJS came in. Call me old fashioned, but its just how i feel.

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    [QUOTE=npavel;3599290]so, yes, it has been approved?[/

    The Communications (the one about Choreo Sequence is 1741) about all the changes approved by ISU Congress are posted:

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

  10. #270
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    Changes for Singles and Pairs - Communication 1741

    Of interest:
    Lifts, twist lifts and death spirals (pairs), spins and steps (singles and pairs) are divided depending on their difficulty in five (5) Levels according to the number of features achieved: Basic Level – in case of no features, Level 1 – in case of one feature, Level 2 – in case of two features, Level 3 – in case of three features and Level 4 – in case of four or more features.

    Step sequences no longer have a required pattern. However step sequences must fully utilize the ice surface.

    Choreographic Sequence will replace the former Choreographic Step Sequence (Senior Men) and Choreographic Spiral Sequences (Senior Ladies and Senior & Junior Pairs) in Free Skating:
    A Choreographic Sequence consist of any kind of movements like steps, turns, spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, transitional (unlisted) jumps, spinning movements etc. A Choreographic Sequence for Ladies must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length. A Choreographic Sequence for Pairs must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length by each partner. The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater. The pattern is not restricted, but the Sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. If this requirement is not fulfilled, the Sequence will have no value. The Choreographic Sequence has to be performed later then the step sequence. The Choreographic Sequence has a base value and will be evaluated by the judges in GOE only.

    Senior Pairs’ Free Program: maximum three (3) Lifts and one (1) Twist Lift are allowed. No longer there will be an additional possibility to execute two (2) Lifts and two (2) Twist Lifts.

    In ISU Championships a Judge must not serve in more than one (1) discipline.

    In the Short Program of Single Skating the base values (but not the GOE’s) for all jump elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program. Each factored base value for all jump elements performed in the second half of the Short Program will be rounded to two decimal places. The second half commences in the middle of the maximum time which means 1 min. 25 sec.

    A deduction - 1.0 will be applied by the Referee if a part of the costume/decoration falls on the ice.

    Starting from the season 2014-2015 vocal music with lyrics will be allowed.
    Changes for Ice Dance
    Communication 1739 - Ice Dance - Scales of Values
    Communication 1738 - Ice Dance Rules Changes
    Short Dance Requirements
    For the season 2013/14, the following Rhythms were selected.
    Senior: Quickstep or Quickstep plus one or two of the following Rhythms: Foxtrot, Charleston, Swing.

    The Pattern Dance Elements must be skated on the Quickstep Rhythm, in the style of Quickstep. The tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Elements must be constant and in accordance with the required tempo of the Pattern Dance Finnstep, i.e. 52 measures of two beats or 104 beats per minute, plus or minus 2 beats per minute.

    Pattern Dance Elements
    Senior: Two (2) Sections of Finnstep
    Section 1: Steps # 1-33
    Section 2: Steps # 34-70
    skated one after the other, Section 1 followed by Section 2, with Step # 1 skated on the Judges’ side.
    FYI, Yankee Polka is the 2012-13 pattern dance.
    Last edited by HisWeirness; 06-22-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  11. #271
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    I don't really like the new short program rule. I think tht everyone will start putting all of their jumps just after the halfway point and programs will be more unbalanced than before. At least in the past you had some skaters put one jump late in the program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisWeirness View Post
    Changes for Singles and Pairs - Communication 1741
    Of interest:
    Step sequences no longer have a required pattern. However step sequences must fully utilize the ice surface
    ...
    In the Short Program of Single Skating the base values (but not the GOE’s) for all jump elements started in the second half of the program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties in the program. Each factored base value for all jump elements performed in the second half of the Short Program will be rounded to two decimal places. The second half commences in the middle of the maximum time which means 1 min. 25 sec.
    Lovely. I so look forward to seeing skaters meander this way and that for seemingly half the program, trying to pack in everything needed for level 3/4. Seriously, I'd rather have less ice coverage just to see something resembling an actual pattern.

    the SP rule would be better if they capped it at one or two jump elements. I have no doubt that Morozov's skaters will now start their SPs with endless step sequences, then proceed to reel off the jumps at the 1:25 mark.

  13. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    I don't really like the new short program rule. I think tht everyone will start putting all of their jumps just after the halfway point and programs will be more unbalanced than before. At least in the past you had some skaters put one jump late in the program.
    I think it largely depends on which jumps they're doing.

    Skaters that do jumps they're comfortable with will (and in some cases already do) put them later in the program. E.g., the good senior ladies are generally comfortable enough with double axel to put that as the 5th element or later in a SP.

    Skaters who are pushing their limits with one or more jump elements will continue to put them early in the program. E.g., quads for top men, 3-3 combos (or 3A) for top women. For less good jumpers, the triples that the top jumpers are already comfortable with.

    Already we've seen most of the good jumpers doing the hardest jumps put most of their jumps in the first 3-4 elements. Now more of them will choose to move one or more jumps later in the program, but most of them will not move all their jumps to the end.

    The so-so jumpers who had been doing easier jumps and saving those for later will continue to do so.

    I don't think we're going to see layouts like spin-steps-spin-spin-jump-jump-jump or spin-steps-jump-spin-jump-jump-spin becoming more common than the current probably most common jump-jump-spin-jump-spin-steps-spin. Just more common than they have been, and therefore the previous favorites will be come less common.

    I think we're also more likely to see "choreography" without elements at the beginning of the program and not so much between the elements after they start doing elements. So the jumps might still be elements 1, 3, and 4, but element 3 will be timed to fall right after the halfway point.

    I think we'll get strategic jump layouts, but no moreso than we already have been, and I expect more variety of strategies based on each skater's own comfort with the jumps they choose to include.

    We might see fewer quad combos in the SP on the theory that even with the increased base marks for quads if they're iffy enough not to guarantee a triple toe afterward a consistent 3-3 combo in the second half would be more valuable.

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    k) In ISU Championships a Judge must not serve in more than one (1) discipline.


    does this mean in a particular championship event a judge may not serve in more than one discipline, or across all championship events judges must stick to one discipline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I don't think we're going to see layouts like spin-steps-spin-spin-jump-jump-jump or spin-steps-jump-spin-jump-jump-spin becoming more common than the current probably most common jump-jump-spin-jump-spin-steps-spin. Just more common than they have been, and therefore the previous favorites will be come less common.

    I think we're also more likely to see "choreography" without elements at the beginning of the program and not so much between the elements after they start doing elements. So the jumps might still be elements 1, 3, and 4, but element 3 will be timed to fall right after the halfway point.

    I think we'll get strategic jump layouts, but no moreso than we already have been, and I expect more variety of strategies based on each skater's own comfort with the jumps they choose to include.
    ITA. But I did bold the layout I'd like to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliona22 View Post
    k) In ISU Championships a Judge must not serve in more than one (1) discipline.


    does this mean in a particular championship event a judge may not serve in more than one discipline, or across all championship events judges must stick to one discipline?
    I would understand that it means within one competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    the SP rule would be better if they capped it at one or two jump elements. I have no doubt that Morozov's skaters will now start their SPs with endless step sequences, then proceed to reel off the jumps at the 1:25 mark.
    Just thinking about the perfunctory choreographic abortions Morosov will present as programs this year makes me want to vomit...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    Unfortunately, I tend to be negative about changes, as there has yet to be one thing about the programs that I think has improved since IJS came in. Call me old fashioned, but its just how i feel.
    All of the non-jump elements, transitions, jump layout (less front-loaded programs), etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Lovely. I so look forward to seeing skaters meander this way and that for seemingly half the program, trying to pack in everything needed for level 3/4. Seriously, I'd rather have less ice coverage just to see something resembling an actual pattern.

    the SP rule would be better if they capped it at one or two jump elements. I have no doubt that Morozov's skaters will now start their SPs with endless step sequences, then proceed to reel off the jumps at the 1:25 mark.
    This is what I fear as well.

    'Fully utilize the ice surface' does not sound specific enough to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    The Choreo Steps have already been in place for the Mens FS over the past season and I think they worked really well. There was a lot more freedom in the steps the guys did because they were not constrained by having to try and up the technical difficulty of an element. I wouldn't be so quick to be negative about this one until we have seen some programs with it.
    I knew I would eventually find something where we agreed

    Indeed, with the skaters less focused on fitting in the correct combination of difficult turns and their directions etc we have seen a much more creative and expressive version of a step sequence... This is a chance for skaters to be innovative and free in what they do, something which the ijs often limits...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubletoe View Post
    What I hate about this rule is that it does not allow the skater to put the spiral sequence/choreo moves sequence where it best fits the music. It must be after the step sequence.
    Yes but you (or your coach) are choosing the music. If you want to put the spiral sequence/choreo moves sequence where it best fits the music, you can cut the music differently, or change the order of the bits you are using. Too late for your current program, but something to consider when choosing the music for the next program.

    My current program starts with the step sequence; that makes the decision where to put spiral sequence/choreo moves sequence easier.

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