View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past ladies champions?

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  • Lu Chen

    12 4.00%
  • Michelle Kwan

    12 4.00%
  • Tara Lipinski

    60 20.00%
  • Maria Butyrskaya

    98 32.67%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    6 2.00%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    9 3.00%
  • Mao Asada

    9 3.00%
  • Yuna Kim

    11 3.67%
  • Carolina Kostner

    83 27.67%
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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by vodkashot View Post
    Not necessarily. What about the period from 2007-8 to 2009-2010? World Champions did not land quads, and an Olympic Champion lacked a quad and even had a wonky 3A.
    I'm talking generally, not literally. Quads are now included in many of the men's programs, as well as 3a/3t. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. With the women, there was a long period when most of the women didn't even include a 3/3 in their programs, and only 3 have landed the 3a since Ito and Harding. Yamaguchi, Ito, and Harding could have all been plucked from the year 1991, placed in the year 2001, and still compete against the top competitors.

  2. #182
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    Why do we only talk about how past skaters would do under COP. Why not always talk about how present skaters would do under 6.0. How is it fair to only look one way and not the other. Especialy since nobody but avid skating fans give a rats behind about the sport in the COP era anyway.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    I wasn't reffering to people who were sick of catch-foots but peaople who were sick of CoP in general. Michelle's fans were surely unhappy that their idol couldn't be succesful anymore and her rivals from 6.0 era COULD. That's hard to deny. Just go to MK forum and read all the bashing CoP got in 2005.

    Those are some pretty far-fetched assumptions. I think if anyone was disappointed regarding Kwan when CoP hit the World Championships (2004/2005 season) it was that she was not in her prior form which could have been due to lack of motivation, injury, or that her body was just spent after 12-13 years of international competition...or most likely a combination of all of the above. In her 2005 form, she would not have been as competitive in 6.0 either.

    Over the last 8 years since CoP has been around, 4 women have won Worlds with Biellmans, and 4 have won without them.

  4. #184
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    It looks like poor Maria is toast now. Carolina is lasting alot longer in this game than I thought she would. I wonder if Maria had defended her World title in 2000 or won the bronze at the 1998 Olympics if she would have atleast outlasted Carolina. Or if she had done both those things. Or even then she would have gotten the boot before the lutzless World Champion. Now if Tara goes out before Carolina I will have to laugh.

  5. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    . Yamaguchi, Ito, and Harding could have all been plucked from the year 1991, placed in the year 2001, and still compete against the top competitors.
    They could also have been placed in year 2012, leaving Carolina as the world pewter medalist. Ito and Harding were truly extraordinary jumpers, and Kristi deserves major credit too for staying competitive with them. Still Ito had only one great Worlds, Harding had none, and both Kristi's world and olympic victories were quite beatable by skaters like Kwan or Slutskaya. So yeah, they were extraodinary jumpers who ability stood the test of time, but were they really greater champions?

  6. #186
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    Miki should be glad that she was out at a early round.
    Thinking this putting Kwan down that would be prolonged to the last round and future's puttings Kim, Irina, Mao down.
    Last edited by t.mann; 06-14-2012 at 04:46 AM.

  7. #187
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    Well Yamaguchi, Ito and Harding at their best were extraordinary skaters but that can be said for many other skaters. Asada at her best could pull off a Triple Axel and two triple-triples and score immensely well on spins and footwork/spiral. Kostner for years was capable of a seven triple program. Ando too. Kim was capable of getting +1s and +2s on all her elements which she actually did at 2008 Olympics.

    Of course every single skater mentioned were also prone to huge mistakes. Harding was never known for her consistency. Yamaguchi usually always mucked up the salchow and was vulnerable on her loop. After 1989 Ito's performances became more and more prone to mistakes. Kim showed huge vulnerability at times, particularly at 2007 Worlds. Ando and Kostner were always prone to hot messes. Asada bless her has always shown vulnerability post 2005 Grand Prix Final.

    All seven skaters could have held up 10 or 20 years ago and their performances will hold up in another 10 or 20 years.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    But the "let me grab my foot every 30 seconds" act was not exclusive to Irina, nor even ladies.
    IIRC, Slutskaya and Asada had Biellman positions in all 4 of their spins during the 2006 Olympic season, and Arakawa had donut positions in all 4 of her spins. And the men were a disaster with sit spins - flying sit, sit change sit, camel sit change sit etc - all with the same variations.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plusdinfo View Post
    I'm going to chime in with an "Ahhh, Maria" to the poster who sighed over her likely elimination. I think she is vilified by North Americans much more than elsewhere in the world even though she does have some N.A. fans. It seems to me that people who like her have good taste ;-). What a woman; what a skater.
    I have to agree with you on this one. I didn't like everything about her skating, but something about her style really drew me in. She had the artistry that Irina lacked, and a terrific lutz that Michelle did not have.

    I don't think this thread should have been dragged on so long, though it does show how opinions change over time. It's about time to move on to the next round.

  10. #190
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    I feel sorry for Butyrskaya and even Kostner. Butyrskaya's skating was beautiful. She probably would have been much more successful if her Federation supported her more post-Nagano. When she skated well, her skating was smooth, musical and drew people in. 1998 Olympic short, 1999 Worlds long, 2000 Worlds short, 2000 NHK etc.

    Even if just counting the past 2 seasons, Kostner has already delivered more beautiful performances than Slutskaya in her whole career.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I feel sorry for Butyrskaya and even Kostner. Butyrskaya's skating was beautiful. She probably would have been much more successful if her Federation supported her more post-Nagano. When she skated well, her skating was smooth, musical and drew people in. 1998 Olympic short, 1999 Worlds long, 2000 Worlds short, 2000 NHK etc.
    I've never found Maria smooth, even if I liked her skating.
    But I was really disappointed by her choreographies post 2000. After Scenes d'Amour, I thought she had found her style, and that she was going to find some amazing choreos, and no.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I've never found Maria smooth, even if I liked her skating.
    But I was really disappointed by her choreographies post 2000. After Scenes d'Amour, I thought she had found her style, and that she was going to find some amazing choreos, and no.
    Well, watch her Nagano short program

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Even if just counting the past 2 seasons, Kostner has already delivered more beautiful performances than Slutskaya in her whole career.
    I definitely don't agree. Of course there different opinions about what the word 'beautiful' means. Apparently ours are direffent. I put Stlutskaya's exuberant performances with 6 or 7 triples (and of course all kind of triples and two lutzes) much higher than this year Carolina's toeloop, salchow and loop performances, even if they had beautiful choreography.

  14. #194

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    Maria's stiff knees usually ruined the enjoyment of her programmes. There were some moves that she did exquisitely, but there was a lot of stiff leg/knee skating that ruined the overall look and smoothness. Watching the landings of jumps made me whince for her because they were so stiff in the knee. I loved her loop and salchow but wasn't a fan of the rest of her jump.

    Basic skating skills alone mean Kostner is stonger than Maria for me.

  15. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    I have to agree with you on this one. I didn't like everything about her skating, but something about her style really drew me in. She had the artistry that Irina lacked, and a terrific lutz that Michelle did not have.

    I don't think this thread should have been dragged on so long, though it does show how opinions change over time. It's about time to move on to the next round.
    I was wondering if the time to vote needs to be shorter. Is it one week per round right now? May be 3 or4 days would be enough to vote and complete a round? If it goes on too long, we tend to talk nearly same things. I would definitely like to see the survivor threads move through rounds faster, although I am enjoying the discussions.

    About Maria, I do believe that she is vilified in North America, and I am not sure why. I like both Maria and Irina, and I appreciate their different styles. For me it's not always either or. I am sorry to see her being voted out early.

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I was wondering if the time to vote needs to be shorter. Is it one week per round right now? May be 3 or4 days would be enough to vote and complete a round? If it goes on too long, we tend to talk nearly same things. I would definitely like to see the survivor threads move through rounds faster, although I am enjoying the discussions.

    About Maria, I do believe that she is vilified in North America, and I am not sure why. I like both Maria and Irina, and I appreciate their different styles. For me it's not always either or. I am sorry to see her being voted out early.
    I'm using Six days for the Ladies and Dance games. Can't say about the others. A week for each round gives an opportunity to most members to vote. NOT everyone logs in here daily, specially during the off season, so if I shorten the periods only the most fanatics will have a chance to vote everytime and they're usually the most biased.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    NOT everyone logs in here daily...
    Who doesn't???

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