View Poll Results: Who is the weakest link among these past ladies champions?

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  • Lu Chen

    9 3.61%
  • Michelle Kwan

    3 1.20%
  • Tara Lipinski

    47 18.88%
  • Maria Butyrskaya

    43 17.27%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    3 1.20%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    9 3.61%
  • Miki Ando

    62 24.90%
  • Mao Asada

    8 3.21%
  • Yuna Kim

    4 1.61%
  • Carolina Kostner

    61 24.50%
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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wouldn't brag about either of those wins. In 2007 she won neither portion of the competition despite being clean and in 2011 her performance was very sub-par.
    True, but still....a win is a win is a win

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Just a reminder of what Carolina was capable of...her 2005 worlds debut.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHrWWWdp-g

    Insane speed...gorgeous jumps...lovely program. Carolina is a remarkable talent but, like so many, she lacked consistency. As she's gotten older, she's found her consistency but the trade-off has been a reduction in her difficulty.

    Various injuries, set backs and age have forced her to dumb down her technical content but I'm okay with that...especially when she can win without it. Her presentation is beautiful, her speed is incredible, her programs are wonderful and the jumps she does complete are fantastic.

    I'm all for tougher jumps and combinations, but when it isn't necessary to win in the field you're presented with, why do it? Just for the sake of saying you did? Given the amount of injuries skaters sustain and the wear and tear on their bodies, if Carolina can get by without the tougher jumps, she should...if only to prolong her career. You can bet with her age and past injuries that training the more difficult jumps would only lead to more injuries and probably force her into retirement. Case in point: look at Alissa. She attempted to up her technical content by training 3lz-3t and other difficult combinations last summer b/c she wanted to compete with the younger skaters. This summer she needs hip surgery...

    The point is you can't necessarily expect a 25 year old to do what a 15 year old can...some can but most can't. I get that and that's why Carolina's lack of a lutz or more difficult 3-3 don't bother me. She's found a good consistency and she's using that (along with her other outstanding skills) to win titles.

    Just because in her older age she does less difficult jumps doesn't lessen her value as a skater. If anything it's a testament to her abilities as a skater. She's adjusted to her physical limitations and still manages to beat skaters with tougher jumps than her. People get too hung up on lutzes, 3-3s and combinations...I'll take an easier, more inspired program any day over a half-assed program crammed with difficult jumps. But that's just me...
    I disagree with you on several points.

    1.Carolina always had insane speed, but speed alone does not define a skater. Occasionally she landed gorgeous jumps, like 3f3t combination in the SP at 2006 Oly. However, what separates top/champion skaters is the ability to sustain the good qualities, particularly the 3 jumps. The jumps are THE riskiest elements, so they have to be valued over things like stroking, which Carolina does well.

    2.Competitions don't grade skaters based on their age, but rather on their performance. So the argument that she cannot do at 25 what a 15 year old can is irrelevant. Same applies to a 15 year old competing against a 25 year old. You can't just give her high marks for artistry just because she is younger. If the older skater cannot be competitive jumpwise, she has to accept the lower score for the jumps, and they still are the biggest mark carriers.

    3.Again, you are using her injuries as an excuse for not doing the difficult jumps. It's OK if a skater cannot do the jumps due to injuries, but then she deserves the lower marks based on what she can/cannot do.

    4.As an older skater, I have enjoyed watching Carolina than I ever did in her career. I rarely enjoyed her skating when she was both coltish and inconsistent. The last two years I have enjoyed watching her mature as a skater, but there is no denying that she won the title this year because the rest of the field was extremely weak.

    5.I don't have a problem with her winning the world title this year- a win is a win, no matter who or how anyone else skated- , but I do have a problem with the excuses being made on her behalf, and saying she is not the weakest champion in the remaining list of skaters here. I am looking at not just the world championship she won, but her overall career, which is really not much to write about (her world silver and bronze were gifts from the judges, IMO), if you take out the last two years.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Just a reminder of what Carolina was capable of...her 2005 worlds debut.
    Her worlds debut was in 2003.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Her worlds debut was in 2003.
    Right you are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I disagree with you on several points.

    1.Carolina always had insane speed, but speed alone does not define a skater. Occasionally she landed gorgeous jumps, like 3f3t combination in the SP at 2006 Oly. However, what separates top/champion skaters is the ability to sustain the good qualities, particularly the 3 jumps. The jumps are THE riskiest elements, so they have to be valued over things like stroking, which Carolina does well.

    2.Competitions don't grade skaters based on their age, but rather on their performance. So the argument that she cannot do at 25 what a 15 year old can is irrelevant. Same applies to a 15 year old competing against a 25 year old. You can't just give her high marks for artistry just because she is younger. If the older skater cannot be competitive jumpwise, she has to accept the lower score for the jumps, and they still are the biggest mark carriers.

    3.Again, you are using her injuries as an excuse for not doing the difficult jumps. It's OK if a skater cannot do the jumps due to injuries, but then she deserves the lower marks based on what she can/cannot do.

    4.As an older skater, I have enjoyed watching Carolina than I ever did in her career. I rarely enjoyed her skating when she was both coltish and inconsistent. The last two years I have enjoyed watching her mature as a skater, but there is no denying that she won the title this year because the rest of the field was extremely weak.

    5.I don't have a problem with her winning the world title this year- a win is a win, no matter who or how anyone else skated- , but I do have a problem with the excuses being made on her behalf, and saying she is not the weakest champion in the remaining list of skaters here. I am looking at not just the world championship she won, but her overall career, which is really not much to write about (her world silver and bronze were gifts from the judges, IMO), if you take out the last two years.


    1. That's just me giving credit for the qualities of her skating. I agree that maintaining a healthy arsenal of jumps is important and is a credit to the longevity of the competitor but, in this confusing time of technical regression, Carolina managed to beat the field without them.

    2 & 3. Agreed, but Carolina doesn't do her damage in the TES; her PCS is what wins her competitions. Her jump content is enough to keep her within striking distance to allow her PCS to make up for her technical shortcomings.

    4. ITA completely. I've gained an appreciation for her skating in the last 2 years. Prior to that I recognized her great qualities but I was too distracted by the fact she was constantly on her ass. Since Yu-Na's departure, the technical content among the senior ladies has fallen back to what is prior to Torino. Carolina has capitalized on that...

    5. Understandable. I guess my criteria for judging this stupid poll are skewed at bit. My opinion is that Carolina is a stronger skater than Miki Ando but I think Miki is the better competitor which makes her a better champion, I suppose.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Her quad was never ratified under COP. Very few of her 3/3s were fully ratified under COP. She might have fixed the lip but she also left it out from competition most times in the last few seasons.


    She was certainly a talented jumper, but her consistency was mostly at a cost of style, choreography and intepretation.



    I am ... glad you are able to appreciate her artistry at all.

    Kostner never really had any weak seasons. She has certainly had weak competitions but she almost always had some strong performances each season, at GPF and/ or Euros.

    And you wanna bet who would win if Kostner and Ando competed head to head and landed equivalent jumps?
    Miki got LOTS of triple-triples ratified under CoP. And they were more difficult than Carolina's. Just go and see on youtube those examples and then check the protcols:

    2004 SA SP 3Lz+3Lo
    2004 NHK FS 3Lz+3Lo+2T
    2004-2005 GPF FS 3F+3Lo
    2005 Worlds SP 3Lz+3Lo
    2005-2006 GPF SP 3Lz+3Lo
    2006 SA SP and FS 3Lz+3Lo
    2006 TEB SP 3Lz+3Lo
    2006-2007 GPF SP 3Lz+3Lo
    2007 Worlds SP and FS 3Lz+3Lo
    2008 CoC SP 3Lz+3Lo

    2008-2009 was certainly a weak season for Kostner.

    I am glad too. Do you think there's no artistry here at all?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtazJH-amd8

    Kostner would never land the same jump content as Ando. She has never in her whole life skated a clean long program apart from 2003 Euros (though she may have had a mistake there too, I don't remember). And has Ando ever been clean in the FS? Yes, of course, she has, many times. Off the top of my head:

    2007 Worlds, 2006 SA, 2007-2008 JPN Nats, 2010 Olympics, whole 2010-2011 season besides 2011 Worlds. Now, that's consistency. Kostner is more inconsistent than Sasha Cohen

    Ando is also the only skater whose clean, fully rotated quad is recorded (all of Bonaly's and Asada's attempts were cheated). Look here, she nailed a few clean ones in practice:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR68Q4X45hg

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    Kostner would never land the same jump content as Ando. She has never in her whole life skated a clean long program apart from 2003 Euros (though she may have had a mistake there too, I don't remember).
    Kostner doubled what was probably supposed to be a triple loop.

  7. #147
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    less than two hours to go and Ando still leads, barely...


    come on! someone vote kostner

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    less than two hours to go and Ando still leads, barely...


    come on! someone vote kostner
    Yes! Please!

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I disagree with you on several points.

    1.Carolina always had insane speed, but speed alone does not define a skater. Occasionally she landed gorgeous jumps, like 3f3t combination in the SP at 2006 Oly. However, what separates top/champion skaters is the ability to sustain the good qualities, particularly the 3 jumps. The jumps are THE riskiest elements, so they have to be valued over things like stroking, which Carolina does well.

    2.Competitions don't grade skaters based on their age, but rather on their performance. So the argument that she cannot do at 25 what a 15 year old can is irrelevant. Same applies to a 15 year old competing against a 25 year old. You can't just give her high marks for artistry just because she is younger. If the older skater cannot be competitive jumpwise, she has to accept the lower score for the jumps, and they still are the biggest mark carriers.

    3.Again, you are using her injuries as an excuse for not doing the difficult jumps. It's OK if a skater cannot do the jumps due to injuries, but then she deserves the lower marks based on what she can/cannot do.

    4.As an older skater, I have enjoyed watching Carolina than I ever did in her career. I rarely enjoyed her skating when she was both coltish and inconsistent. The last two years I have enjoyed watching her mature as a skater, but there is no denying that she won the title this year because the rest of the field was extremely weak.

    5.I don't have a problem with her winning the world title this year- a win is a win, no matter who or how anyone else skated- , but I do have a problem with the excuses being made on her behalf, and saying she is not the weakest champion in the remaining list of skaters here. I am looking at not just the world championship she won, but her overall career, which is really not much to write about (her world silver and bronze were gifts from the judges, IMO), if you take out the last two years.
    Carolina didn't land a 3F3T in the SP at the 2006 Olympics...

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    less than two hours to go and Ando still leads, barely...


    come on! someone vote kostner
    Although I don't think Carolina is the weakest of the remaining (well I don't really have much of an opinion as to who is weakest), I voted for Kostner this morning to even out the votes... It would be nice if both Ando and Kostner were kicked off so that no one can argue about who's better or worse now.

  11. #151
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    All but one of Miki's ratified 3-3s were before they really started cracking down on URs (the 2007-2008 season).

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    All but one of Miki's ratified 3-3s were before they really started cracking down on URs (the 2007-2008 season).
    That's right, but it doesn't mean they were all short of rotation and panel gave her the credit just because they were too lenient. Of course they weren't as severe as they started to be in 2007-2008 but still most of Miki's 3Lz+3Lo's from 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 were downgraded.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    That's right, but it doesn't mean they were all short of rotation and panel gave her the credit just because they were too lenient. Of course they weren't as severe as they started to be in 2007-2008 but still most of Miki's 3Lz+3Lo's from 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 were downgraded.
    Yes, her -3Lo combos did seem better in her earlier years -- probably both growth and the new rules affected it.

  14. #154

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    When I watched Miki in a practice session, I was very impressed with the power of her jumps. That's nothing to sneer at.

  15. #155
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    WOW. Ando(!) edges Kostner for the vote.

    Admittedly I don't care for Ando either (at least during her competitive days I didn't), so not gonna be shedding a tear over her departure that said, don't think she deserved to go so soon.
    Last edited by RD; 06-09-2012 at 12:34 AM.

  16. #156

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    Ando is generally hated on this board, along with Lipinski (and Plushenko on mens side), so I am not surprised, but I am still saddened that she was voted out.

  17. #157

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    Miki won the World twice with convincing performances. I think she dominated the 2010-11 season with her almost flawless FS. (IIRC, she made only one mistake in FS thoughout the season. Incredible!)
    Too bad she couldn't peak at the Olympic seasons.

    Looking back the 05/06 season and before, her improvement in artistry and growth as a skater is amazing. She overcame setbacks she had to experice at both Olympics. I'm willing to call her a true champion.

    I don't know she'll compete at Sochi but I'm sure she'll continue to show us great show programs in the years to come.

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