Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 41
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Require an additional credential, beyond passing tests and winning a national medal in a limited field, for skaters to earn those assignments.
    Good thinking.

    But using one of the national championships held in late 2011 as an example, of the three women selected for Four Continents in 2012, only two had competitive double axels, and one had an iffy competitive triple.

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,467
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Good thinking.

    But using one of the national championships held in late 2011 as an example, of the three women selected for Four Continents in 2012, only two had competitive double axels, and one had an iffy competitive triple.
    So the federation could say we don't have anyone worthy of senior international assignments -- if you're too old for juniors, go work on those jumps, maybe we'll send you next year.

    Or sending them could be a worthwhile investment as a wakeup call for those skaters' own competitive careers, as a chance for current Australian officials to get championship level experience, and as an opportunity for these skaters to see what the standards are in case they want to become officials or coaches themselves.

    But saying we're not even going to give you a senior test or let you compete at the national championships, even if that means years go by with no senior ladies in Australia, is not going to encourage kids to keep skating.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    By sending a skater to an international event, wouldn't it be a short term focus with a view to competing and being event - ready. The long term focus with a view to coaching is part of the bigger picture, that the skater can impart to others later.

    Otherwise, send the skater to observe the event or download the competition, have the skaters watch it and say, this is the standard we expect you to meet.

    Maybe the budget for sending skaters to competitions could be used sending promising skaters (lacking the technical content but with that potential) to jump specialists like Kathy Casey or Christy Kraal instead of sending them to events where they don't have that content.

    Anyway, it's all hypothetical stuff. It takes years to create champions, and if China and South Korea can do it, perhaps they are the models to use as examples.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    153
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    811
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    By sending a skater to an international event, wouldn't it be a short term focus with a view to competing and being event - ready. The long term focus with a view to coaching is part of the bigger picture, that the skater can impart to others later.

    Otherwise, send the skater to observe the event or download the competition, have the skaters watch it and say, this is the standard we expect you to meet.

    Maybe the budget for sending skaters to competitions could be used sending promising skaters (lacking the technical content but with that potential) to jump specialists like Kathy Casey or Christy Kraal instead of sending them to events where they don't have that content.

    Anyway, it's all hypothetical stuff. It takes years to create champions, and if China and South Korea can do it, perhaps they are the models to use as examples.
    Great idea! Money spent better to learn required skills, that in itself is an invaluable experience. There are plenty of B events Novice and up to gain international experience.

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34819
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    But reigning it in, my main concern is smaller associations that have set the senior test requirements to preclude any triple jumps (and the double axel required for the short program), and subsequently sending skaters without these jumps (actually landed in competition) to international championships.
    Let me throw out a novel concept. Maybe the skaters can judge for themself whether they have the necessary elements to make them competitive overseas. If they don't but they still want to go overseas to compete at international events, then I don't see what is the problem.

    You know, sometimes it isn't about having the necessary jumps but just getting out there, giving it a go and getting some experience. Our skaters are pretty realistic about their abilities, but they do have personal goals they want to reach. And most of the time they end up paying for themselves so they are shelling out their own pockets to make the trip.

    When it comes to test levels in Australia, there has probably been a lot of discussion over the Senior ladies test. Maybe the requirement for a triple jump does not help us as a country get skaters to that level. Also achieving a test level is only a starting point for the skater being at that level. Many skaters may make it through having achieved the criteria but that is where the work then begins to make them competitive at that level.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Let me throw out a novel concept. Maybe the skaters can judge for themself whether they have the necessary elements to make them competitive overseas. If they don't but they still want to go overseas to compete at international events, then I don't see what is the problem.

    You know, sometimes it isn't about having the necessary jumps but just getting out there, giving it a go and getting some experience. Our skaters are pretty realistic about their abilities, but they do have personal goals they want to reach. And most of the time they end up paying for themselves so they are shelling out their own pockets to make the trip.

    When it comes to test levels in Australia, there has probably been a lot of discussion over the Senior ladies test. Maybe the requirement for a triple jump does not help us as a country get skaters to that level. Also achieving a test level is only a starting point for the skater being at that level. Many skaters may make it through having achieved the criteria but that is where the work then begins to make them competitive at that level.
    I guess this is why this topic is going around in circles.

    Is it about an association's responsibility to create serious competitive skaters or sending unprepared athletes overseas (without the necessary minimum jumping skills) simply to have them come last?

    (Since the athletes are paying their own way, if they are serious about the sport, my earlier suggestion was for them to use their money going overseas for the necessary jump skills training instead of going to competition unprepared. The dancers, O'Brien and Merriman have relocated to the United States and have since broken the World's top twenty. Brooklee Han, Cheltzie Lee and some of the men go o/s part of the year for training as well)

    Using a local model, Gymnastics Australia in 1983 for example, saw their ladies' team ranked 23rd in the World. 20 years later, they stood on the World podium. This upswing has increased awareness, government assistance, participation in the sport, and weeded recreational team representatives out from serious, driven athletes.

    Training coaches up to speed with the necessary teaching skills and demanding that the gymnasts meet and surpass minimum international requirements, is now producing top eight event final and World medal results.
    Last edited by essence_of_soy; 06-15-2012 at 01:39 AM.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34819
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Training coaches up to speed with the necessary teaching skills and demanding that the gymnasts meet and surpass minimum international requirements, is now producing top eight event final and World medal results.
    Well your other issue is as coaches are self-employed, any responsibility for their training and development falls back on themselves. It is not as if someone is going to pay for it. And as most do not earn fantastic incomes, they are limited financially in what they can do to improve their skills.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Well your other issue is as coaches are self-employed, any responsibility for their training and development falls back on themselves. It is not as if someone is going to pay for it. And as most do not earn fantastic incomes, they are limited financially in what they can do to improve their skills.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,158
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4049
    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    I guess this is why this topic is going around in circles.

    Is it about an association's responsibility to create serious competitive skaters or sending unprepared athletes overseas (without the necessary minimum jumping skills) simply to have them come last?

    (Since the athletes are paying their own way, if they are serious about the sport, my earlier suggestion was for them to use their money going overseas for the necessary jump skills training instead of going to competition unprepared. The dancers, O'Brien and Merriman have relocated to the United States and have since broken the World's top twenty. Brooklee Han, Cheltzie Lee and some of the men go o/s part of the year for training as well)

    Using a local model, Gymnastics Australia in 1983 for example, saw their ladies' team ranked 23rd in the World. 20 years later, they stood on the World podium. This upswing has increased awareness, government assistance, participation in the sport, and weeded recreational team representatives out from serious, driven athletes.

    Training coaches up to speed with the necessary teaching skills and demanding that the gymnasts meet and surpass minimum international requirements, is now producing top eight event final and World medal results.


    I wish ISA would be like Gymnastics Australia, but, it isn't. Most of the gymnast on the 2000 Olympic team were put on a training squad at the institute of sport when they were 7, with government funded training that was 30+ hours a week from that age. That just isn't going to happen with ice skating.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,962
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    7850
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    I wish ISA would be like Gymnastics Australia, but, it isn't. Most of the gymnast on the 2000 Olympic team were put on a training squad at the institute of sport when they were 7, with government funded training that was 30+ hours a week from that age. That just isn't going to happen with ice skating.
    Most countries, including the US, have sports that they support, and other sports that get little to no support. Cricket is a wildly popular sport internationally, but it receives virtually no support in the US. From my visit to Australia I suspect that it gets quite a bit more support in Australia. (And having watched a match, I still don't understand the rules.)

    Did Korean interest in figure skating dramatically increase, resulting in more skaters and eventually YuNa Kim, or was YuNa Kim's success the trigger that made it wildly popular. The latter is certainly my impression.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Did Korean interest in figure skating dramatically increase, resulting in more skaters and eventually YuNa Kim, or was YuNa Kim's success the trigger that made it wildly popular. The latter is certainly my impression.
    Korea has certainly had visible talent as early as 1987.

    I recall attending junior worlds in Brisbane and an unheralded skater, Sung Il - Jung, blew everyone away with his technical and artistic ability.

    Here's his free skate

  12. #32

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34819
    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Most countries, including the US, have sports that they support, and other sports that get little to no support. Cricket is a wildly popular sport internationally, but it receives virtually no support in the US. From my visit to Australia I suspect that it gets quite a bit more support in Australia. (And having watched a match, I still don't understand the rules.)
    Cricket in Australia has major TV rights and sponsorship. There is a grass roots program called Milo Cricket which is the little kids development program and I think some of the money the sport makes does get invested in this.

    Though cricket is very much a sport that depends on success. When Australia is doing really well, then you get more kids wanting to do it. When it doesn't do so well it does have issues attracting new kids to the sport.

    Same goes for soccer too. The Australian league has it's dedicated bunch of supporters, but it has to compete against Australian Rule Football which is pretty much the biggest sport in this country.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dashing Between Bennetton and Krispy Kreme
    Posts
    2,453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Sad to think that the spectator potential of skating in Australia is vastly overshadowed by two sports, one tediously slow and dull, and the other, blood - thirsty and violent.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    1,137
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    There is an international recreational test system. ISI (International Ice Skating Institute). It was formerly ISIA (Ice Skating Institute of America). Although it started in the US there are now competitions in Singapore and Bangkok among other places. ISI Worlds are held once a year in the US. Chen Lu brought a Chinese team one year.
    Thank you for the information. But unfortunately this system is not known in Austria. And going overseas for adult testing would be really crazy!

    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Most countries, including the US, have sports that they support, and other sports that get little to no support.
    Same for Austria. Popular winter sports are skiing and ski jumping. No support for figure skating, rather the opposite. Actually we even don’t have enough skating rinks in Vienna. There is always not enough ice time. Not only for Adults, but also for the poor kids who do it on athlete level.

    Does anyone have insights in the testing system in Russia? With the depth of good figure skaters there it would be interesting to get some details about it.

  15. #35

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,467
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20970
    Bumping this thread, to continue the conversation if possible, inspired by the (US) Governing Council thread in Moves in the Field.

  16. #36
    Prick Admin
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Having a kiki
    Posts
    42,399
    vCash
    506
    Rep Power
    25256
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  17. #37

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    City of Blinding Light
    Posts
    15,915
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    12302
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarzyna View Post

    Does anyone have insights in the testing system in Russia? With the depth of good figure skaters there it would be interesting to get some details about it.
    From asking Russian skaters and coaches, as best I can tell, there is no formal testing system in Russia. However, some of the Russian ice dancers do learn some of the/parts of the US compulsory dances, as they feel they are good educational tools.

    Others who are more in the know on this absolutely should correct me.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    607
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    In Canada there are two streams - starskate and competitive. Starskate is recreational and goes pre-preliminary, preliminary, junior bronze (Axel and a double), senior bronze (couple doubles), junior silver, senior silver (maybe 4 different doubles), gold (highest level, 4 or 5 different doubles). To pass the highest level, Gold freeskate, you need only land 4 different doubles in the same program and a couple other small requirements.

    Competitive stream goes pre-juv, juvenile, pre-novice, novice, junior, senior. Now the way you used to compete competitively was by passing competitive tests separate from the recreational tests. Competitive tests consisted of skating a freeskate and reaching a minimum technical and PCS score in competition while also achieving certain other requirements (like landing a certain jump(s) with no lower than -1 GOE). These could also be tried outside of competition with the same requirements other than having a judge (or up to 3) marking the program using IJS by hand. There were no age limits except on Junior (which is the same as Junior internationally).

    To pass a senior test you had to land a double Axel and one triple cleanly with no lower than -1 GOE (or two triples) within the same free skate. You also needed to reach a minimum tech score, minimum PCS score, and minimum skating skills score (I don't remember exactly what those value were).

    This all changed 2 years ago when Skate Canada removed the competitive tests and added age limits to all competitive categories. To skate Novice, Junior or Senior you now need to only be under a certain age (except senior) and you need only pass the recreational Gold free skate test (so land 4 different doubles in a competition). Obviously it's way easier to skate Senior in Canada now. Basically they switched to categorizing by age in Canada and made the requirements more lax so those who aged out of lower categories could still skate Junior/Senior without double axels and triples (though it rarely happens, they usually just stay in the recreational starskate stream).

    I was ecstatic to pass my senior test a few years ago before they phased them out I feel bad that skaters coming up in Canada will no longer have that to strive for sigh. The gold test is a great feat, but there should be more to work toward IMO.
    Last edited by cbd1235; 04-24-2014 at 07:19 PM.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    601
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    In Canada there are two streams - starskate and competitive. Starskate is recreational and goes pre-preliminary, preliminary, junior bronze (Axel and a double), senior bronze (couple doubles), junior silver, senior silver (maybe 4 different doubles), gold (highest level, 4 or 5 different doubles). To pass the highest level, Gold freeskate, you need only land 4 different doubles in the same program and a couple other small requirements.

    Competitive stream goes pre-juv, juvenile, pre-novice, novice, junior, senior. Now the way you used to compete competitively was by passing competitive tests separate from the recreational tests. Competitive tests consisted of skating a freeskate and reaching a minimum technical and PCS score in competition while also achieving certain other requirements (like landing a certain jump(s) with no lower than -1 GOE). These could also be tried outside of competition with the same requirements other than having a judge (or up to 3) marking the program using IJS by hand. There were no age limits except on Junior (which is the same as Junior internationally).

    To pass a senior test you had to land a double Axel and one triple cleanly with no lower than -1 GOE (or two triples) within the same free skate. You also needed to reach a minimum tech score, minimum PCS score, and minimum skating skills score (I don't remember exactly what those value were).

    This all changed 2 years ago when Skate Canada removed the competitive tests and added age limits to all competitive categories. To skate Novice, Junior or Senior you now need to only be under a certain age (except senior) and you need only pass the recreational Gold free skate test (so land 4 different doubles in a competition). Obviously it's way easier to skate Senior in Canada now. Basically they switched to categorizing by age in Canada and made the requirements more lax so those who aged out of lower categories could still skate Junior/Senior without double axels and triples (though it rarely happens, they usually just stay in the recreational starskate stream).

    I was ecstatic to pass my senior test a few years ago before they phased them out I feel bad that skaters coming up in Canada will no longer have that to strive for sigh. The gold test is a great feat, but there should be more to work toward IMO.
    All of the above is true, but what is more shocking is that in Canada, it went from being one of the more difficult countries to compete senior to being EASIER than anywhere else. On test day, the gold freeskate test can be passed by only landing two double jumps (i.e. you can pass by landing double sal and double toe... if you do them both in combination and sequence), as the way the requirements work is that you can fail.. I think 1 (to maybe 2... but probably not) requirement and still pass - that 1 requirement being 4 different types of doubles but pass everything else. I don't know if this has changed now, but that used to be the case.

    Although, there was also a gold "elements" portion of the test, and I think for that, you can fail up to 2 requirements, which basically allows you to miss the double flip and double lutz (so I guess you need to be able to do at least a double loop), but pass every other element required, spins, other jumps, footwork and stroking. I don't know if this is still implemented, but outside of competition, I believe it is even easier to pass the gold test now. (Actually I don't even know if you can test it in competition anymore)

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    607
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I cannot remember if they are still implementing the "solo" and "elements" portions but I believe they are. You can definitely fail up to two of the elements requirements so all of the above is correct. I was totally unaware that you could pass it with only a 2sal and 2toe with some combos . In competition (if they still do it) I believe it's a bit stricter and you do have to land the 4 different doubles (or it was like that 2 years ago anyway because a skater at my rink had struggled to pass it twice because they landed 3 different ones and messed up the 4th), it could have certainly changed though.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •