View Poll Results: Which figure skating champion is the weakest link?

Voters
196. You may not vote on this poll
  • Lu Chen

    4 2.04%
  • Michelle Kwan

    5 2.55%
  • Tara Lipinski

    9 4.59%
  • Maria Butyrskaya

    24 12.24%
  • Sarah Hughes

    104 53.06%
  • Irina Slutskaya

    2 1.02%
  • Shizuka Arakawa

    5 2.55%
  • Miki Ando

    20 10.20%
  • Mao Asada

    7 3.57%
  • Yuna Kim

    3 1.53%
  • Carolina Kostner

    13 6.63%
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 74
  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,496
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    In that case she wouldnt be competitive at all. Besides her consistency the ojnly thing that made her stand out was doing triple-triples, hard combinations, multiple triple (f)lutzes and flips, etc...What would carry her without them, her jump quality, her stunnnig artistry, lol!
    Who is to say that she wouldn't be competitive today? It's not as if there are gazilions of female skaters with five different triples, both true flips and true lutzes. and triple-triple combinations, all wrapped up with artistry superior to Sarah Hughes'.

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    730
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I vote for arakawa since no one else had, she also underrotated jumps, was pretty blah for many years and she had major wedgies when skating..

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    in Yuna bubble everafter
    Posts
    4,891
    vCash
    465
    Rep Power
    42231
    Quote Originally Posted by eurodance2001 View Post
    I vote for arakawa since no one else had, she also underrotated jumps, was pretty blah for many years and she had major wedgies when skating..

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Still cheering for Mirai and Jeremy
    Age
    30
    Posts
    3,882
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    1271
    Quote Originally Posted by babayaga View Post
    I voted for Sarah Hughes in the first round, so I am voting for her again here.
    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Me too!
    Make that three. Although I agree with the poster who said that Sarah had a nice layback.
    "If people are looking for guarantees, they should buy appliances at Sears and stay away from human relationships."~Prancer

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    3,243
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11858
    Voted for Butyrskaya on her record even though I preferred her skating to Ando and Hughes. Couldn't quite knock out Hughes yet since she won her Olympics fair and square due to others' failure to do so.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    241
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Voted for Butyrskaya on her record even though I preferred her skating to Ando and Hughes. Couldn't quite knock out Hughes yet since she won her Olympics fair and square due to others' failure to do so.
    Her victory wasn't fair and square. Flutzes, severely underrotated triple-triples, mule kicks... If this competition had used CoP, Hughes wouldn't have made it to top 5. Irina would've been first after SP and she would've won the whole thing. Cohen would've been probably second and Kwan thrid.

    I remember that some members here used to play a judging game in which old 6.0 competitions were judges under CoP. Such game should be played using Ladies event from 2002 Olympics. The results would be totally different.

    I voted for Hughes, obviously. I appreciate her beatiful choreography and artistry as well as beautiful line, posture and flexibility which she showed in her spirals. They were one of the best in the whole field. The same thing with her layback, only Sasha's was superior. Nevertheless, having magnificent spirals and layback are not enough when compared with those skaters. Sarah had too many flaws in her skating.

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,922
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    If Cop were around in 2002, don't you think skaters would have adjusted accordingly? I think that's the point some seem to be missing here...

  8. #28
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,496
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    If Cop were around in 2002, don't you think skaters would have adjusted accordingly? I think that's the point some seem to be missing here...
    Of course they would have.

    I think that if CoP had suddenly been imposed unannounced at the 2002 Winter Olympics, some of Hughes' top rivals would have been treated quite harshly if the judging were fair. Michelle Kwan, for example, did a combination of a two-footed triple toe loop into a double toe loop and an underrotated triple flip (with a fall out) in her Free Skate and didn't keep her free foot up in the "classic" position in her laybacks. She might also have had some trouble with the technical panel and judges on her triple flip in the Short Program and with respect to the edges on her lutzes. I also think she would (or should) have been behind Hughes on PCS in the Free Skate.

    Also, as the replay section of the CBC Video of Hughes' FS suggests, Hughes' triple-triples may not have been as severely underrotated in actuality as they are in FSU mythology.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91872
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    Voted for Butyrskaya on her record even though I preferred her skating to Ando and Hughes. Couldn't quite knock out Hughes yet since she won her Olympics fair and square due to others' failure to do so.
    She did not win the OGM fair and square. She was held up mightily in the SP where she should have placed 5th, thus making it impossible for her to win the OGM, no matter how she skated the LP. Even in the LP, although it was a clean skate with a lot of joy, she underrotated many of her triples, but was not penalized for UR (6.0 rarely did that). Her flutzes were ignored in the SP and LP. It wasn't 'fair and square'.

  10. #30
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,496
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    She did not win the OGM fair and square. She was held up mightily in the SP where she should have placed 5th, thus making it impossible for her to win the OGM, no matter how she skated the LP.
    Except that there's no clear consensus as to who, other than the three ladies who actually did, should have placed ahead of Hughes.

    You may have a clear idea in your mind of who that one skater is, but the judges didn't. Some judges ranked Hughes fourth, others ranked Suguri, Gusmeroli, Butyrskaya, Fontana, Robinson, Sebestyén, Malinina, and/or Meier ahead of her.

    What's more, the reason why Hughes finished fourth in that segment is that seven out of the nine judges felt that she was fifth or better, not because a majority of them thought she should have been fourth. http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...t-program.html

    Now, if you want to see a couple of skaters who didn't win their gold medals fair and square, point your browser here, and you'll find them.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Except that there's no clear consensus as to who, other than the three ladies who actually did, should have placed ahead of Hughes.

    You may have a clear idea in your mind of who that one skater is, but the judges didn't. Some judges ranked Hughes fourth, others ranked Suguri, Gusmeroli, Butyrskaya, Fontana, Robinson, Sebestyén, Malinina, and/or Meier ahead of her.

    What's more, the reason why Hughes finished fourth in that segment is that seven out of the nine judges felt that she was fifth or better, not because a majority of them thought she should have been fourth. http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...t-program.html

    Now, if you want to see a couple of skaters who didn't win their gold medals fair and square, point your browser here, and you'll find them.
    Yeah I agree. Sale and Pelletier didn't deserve gold. They had a boring recycled program with no transitions.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    730
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Except that there's no clear consensus as to who, other than the three ladies who actually did, should have placed ahead of Hughes.

    You may have a clear idea in your mind of who that one skater is, but the judges didn't. Some judges ranked Hughes fourth, others ranked Suguri, Gusmeroli, Butyrskaya, Fontana, Robinson, Sebestyén, Malinina, and/or Meier ahead of her.

    What's more, the reason why Hughes finished fourth in that segment is that seven out of the nine judges felt that she was fifth or better, not because a majority of them thought she should have been fourth. http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...t-program.html

    Now, if you want to see a couple of skaters who didn't win their gold medals fair and square, point your browser here, and you'll find them.
    I'm glad you mention this. Peeps forget that ordinals were all over the friggin place in the SP and not until Sarah Meier finished at the end did the shuffle stop. Fumie was in and out of the final group until the very end an ordinal flipped her into 7th.. There was no clear consensus from 4th to 10th at least..

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    241
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Of course they would have.

    I think that if CoP had suddenly been imposed unannounced at the 2002 Winter Olympics, some of Hughes' top rivals would have been treated quite harshly if the judging were fair. Michelle Kwan, for example, did a combination of a two-footed triple toe loop into a double toe loop and an underrotated triple flip (with a fall out) in her Free Skate and didn't keep her free foot up in the "classic" position in her laybacks. She might also have had some trouble with the technical panel and judges on her triple flip in the Short Program and with respect to the edges on her lutzes. I also think she would (or should) have been behind Hughes on PCS in the Free Skate.

    Also, as the replay section of the CBC Video of Hughes' FS suggests, Hughes' triple-triples may not have been as severely underrotated in actuality as they are in FSU mythology.
    This replay section suggests that, in fact, they were even more underrotated than thay are in FSU mythology. Not only was her 3Lo underrotated but also her 3S. Under CoP, it would've looked like 3S<+3Lo<<. And then you would've had 3T+3Lo<. And of course all of her flutzes (as well as those of Kwan's, Cohen's and Suguri's) would've got e. In her case severely deep inside edge what would've meant a mandatory deduction -3 or -2. Obviously Hughes would've got -3 considering she had that terrible mule kick.

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Cerro Torre
    Posts
    3,496
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bartek View Post
    This replay section suggests that, in fact, they were even more underrotated than thay are in FSU mythology. Not only was her 3Lo underrotated but also her 3S. Under CoP, it would've looked like 3S<+3Lo<<. And then you would've had 3T+3Lo<.
    I agree that they're underrotated, but, other than that first triple loop, which I think might be marked as a 3Lo<<, I'm not sure they're underrotated enough to be marked as underrotated (3S< or 3Lo<). Does anyone have screen captures?
    Last edited by Vagabond; 05-30-2012 at 01:50 AM.

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,190
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I wonder how the ladies competition would have been marked if there was no pairs scandal. Hughes was held up in the short program. Slutskaya didn't deserve second in the free. To me, Suguri should have been closer ot the podium than either Hughes or Cohen.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,125
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hughes was held up in the short program.
    No. Her fourth place finish was an artifact of factored placement weirdness, a kind of fluke result that came from there being a lot of 'sort of clean' performances and no clear agreement between the judges as to their quality. It was a little weird if you look at the individual placements there's no evidence of anything untoward (besides the 10th place finish from the Russian? judge which was uncalled for).

    I though Cohen was treated very generously in the SP (and Butyrskaya and Suguri kind of harshly) but sometimes factored placesments could produce weird results.

    Hughes LP victory was completely deserved under the rules of the time.

  17. #37
    Fetalized since 1998
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Waving my Adam banner
    Posts
    2,594
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34624
    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost View Post
    Me too!
    Me, three. Or is it four?

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,190
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    No. Her fourth place finish was an artifact of factored placement weirdness, a kind of fluke result that came from there being a lot of 'sort of clean' performances and no clear agreement between the judges as to their quality. It was a little weird if you look at the individual placements there's no evidence of anything untoward (besides the 10th place finish from the Russian? judge which was uncalled for).

    I though Cohen was treated very generously in the SP (and Butyrskaya and Suguri kind of harshly) but sometimes factored placesments could produce weird results.
    Did you mean ordinals? Yeah they were very messy for the short program. But that's what I meant. Suguri, Butyrskaya and Sebestyen all had better 3lutz combinations and 3flips than Hughes and their spins, footwork and presentation were not a burden. Given that the jumps were valued the most in base mark I was shocked enough judges had Hughes ahead of these three despite her flawed jumps.

    Even as the reigning world bronze medallist I would have Hughes clearly 7th at best after the short program behind Kwan, Cohen, Suguri, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya and Sebestyen.

    Hughes LP victory was completely deserved under the rules of the time.
    Well, I like the complex program, but the jumps were just It's not just the UR but the technique too. I never believe that under-rotations did not matter under 6.0, even though jumps and underrotation penalties were not expressly quantified.

  19. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,268
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Except that there's no clear consensus as to who, other than the three ladies who actually did, should have placed ahead of Hughes.
    Suguri, Sebeysten, and Butyrskaya all should have clearly beaten Hughes in the SP. That was the consensus of most people at the time. Just because there wasnt a clear consensus amongst the judges, doesnt mean there wasnt amongst others. Hughes though was World bronze medalist on home ice, so the majority of judges held her up, which is why she mostly had 4th and 5th place ordinals for a mediocre short program.

    Anyway Slutskaya should have clearly won the short program, another strong consensus at the time. With a win in the short program she would have won overall even with Sarah`s held up short program.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,268
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I wonder how the ladies competition would have been marked if there was no pairs scandal. Hughes was held up in the short program. Slutskaya didn't deserve second in the free. To me, Suguri should have been closer ot the podium than either Hughes or Cohen.
    Suguri didnt really have any buzz coming into the event. I dont think the pairs scandal not taking place would have helped her any. Anyway even if her short program did better, 5 triples in the long program is not good enough for a dark horse skater to make the podium.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •