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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Ah I didnt even notice! Very juicy.
    Maybe less juicy but more interesting, the same 5 teams are facing each other at SC and TEB: G/P, H/D and

    Carron/Jones FRA
    Cappellini/Lanotte ITA
    Riazanova/Tkachenko RUS

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    The home 4CC was very generous for US skaters. Mere 157 points at the same comp where Wagner was given 192 is not respectable at all. As many people have said, her 3rd place at US nationals is pretty dubious. I don't understand why Zawadzki is so favored. Big jumps and high height usually can't go together with consistency.
    Your version of the truth doesn't change the results, and these assignments are based on results, not impressions that some members of FSU have about those results.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    Your version of the truth doesn't change the results, and these assignments are based on results, not impressions that some members of FSU have about those results.
    What results? Zawa's score at super generous home 4CC is 25th on the SB list. That doesn't give her a spot. Only the US politicking effort can do that. Nagasu is clearly the more natural selection for NHK. And Zawa was the most natural selection for SA (instead of Flatt). The USFS just wanted to save the host pick spots for others and pushed Zawa to Japan. Many people (not the fans of Zawa or Flatt) would feel unpleasant to see such an act of favoritism.

    Last year, only two skaters with one condition got two initial overseas assignments - Wagner (SB) and Imai (WS)

    This year, four skaters with one condition got two inititial overseas assignments - Zawadzki (WS), Zhang (SB), Machida (WS), Dornbush (WS)

    Easy to guess that the US and Japan have traded Wagner and Imai last year, and Dornbush and Machida this year. But this year... at least, they needed more politicking efforts than last year.
    Last edited by NMURA; 05-23-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    My question is COULD they have blocked him? Could USFS refused to have put Weir in the pool for selection, or as a returning skater, does he make that distinction with the ISU?
    Yes, Yes, No. If USFS did not put him in the pool, he would not have been chosen, just like with Sokolova and Sandhu, who earned two spots at their last Worlds, but their Federations didn't submit their names and effectively retired them. As a returning skater exercising his one-time option, in addition, either he or USFS had to sign that he intended to return to competition.

    Ando said that she had to sign a declaration. I'm not sure if the rules changed, or this was not articulated in the GP Announcement. In last year's GP Announcement, for "Split Couples" can be on the alternates list "if proof is given in writing by their Member that they intend to continue their competitive career", but no similar text for "Come-back" skaters, as I previously thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It is my understanding USFS did not give Weir two events, by being a returning skater he got two events.
    USFS cannot give anyone two events: they can chose a skater/team for Skate America, which might be a skater/team's second event. The ISU dictates that any active team submitted by the Federation who finished top 12 at prior year's Worlds is guaranteed two, but no one Federation has control over two spots. They only can lobby, trade, and negotiate like crazy to make it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    That's a lot of assuming based on 1 tweet which has since been deleted. Who knows the actual story but you cannot say that USFS was pushing Weir and not Farris since neither one was assigned to Skate America- Weir earned his spots based on the ISU rules and Farris presumably was guaranteed 1 but we don't even really know that since this year's rules have not been published yet.
    Every other skater/team skating seniors this season who was in the Top 24 WS or Top 24 SB got at least one, including those who were only one or the other, and I think it's safe to assume that the rule hasn't changed, and if USFS had submitted Farris' name, he would have been guaranteed one.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I don't think the JSF would take Zawadzki ahead of Nagasu unless the US side demanded. Nagasu has the higher WS, SB and of course, popularity in Japan.
    What would USFS' bargaining chip with the Japanese Fed have been? It's hard to imagine the Japanese Fed would have had to give anything away for free, so if there was a deal or pressure, they would have demanded and gotten something in return, unless they already did.

    It's also possible they felt that Nagasu would be more competitive against their own women: Nagasu's PB (CoC) was 15.99 higher than Zawadzki's at 4C's, which you are arguing was inflated because 4C's was held in the US. I know which odds I'd like better if choosing an opponent if I were they. (I personally would take Zawadzski's skating over Nagasu's any day, but that wouldn't be the Japanese Fed's reason .)
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-23-2012 at 01:11 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #185

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    IN re: NMURA- What? I don't understand how it can be considered scandalous to promote your National bronze medalist over the National 8th place finisher, if that's really what happened. It's amazing the way people can spin almost anything into sounding like a miscarriage of justice. And this is coming from someone who prefers Mirai's skating to Agnes' by a very large amount.

  6. #186
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    National bronze medalist is the most deserving host pick.

    Browsing through the whole lists, Russia is inviting the set of Zhang, Zawadzki and Dornbush + Gold. Probably $$$ is involved.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Every other skater/team skating seniors this season who was in the Top 24 WS or Top 24 SB got at least one, including those who were only one or the other, and I think it's safe to assume that the rule hasn't changed, and if USFS had submitted Farris' name, he would have been guaranteed one.
    Interesting. I really feel like, if I had to guess, that someone along the line agreed to sending him back to JGP unless he got 2 GP spots outright, and maybe it became clear he was only getting one, so he or his coaches pulled out. It is all conjecture but I really can't imagine that he was outright blocked from moving up, entirely against his will. Who knows exactly what was communicated...

  8. #188
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    USFS would have had to use its feelers ahead of time to see if he'd get two, because if they submitted his name, he would have had to have been chosen by at least one Federation, although I think Federations can withdraw names between the submission deadline and the initial selection. I don't see any provision for pulling someone who's been assigned at the end of the initial selection and replacing them before the first version is published.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  9. #189

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    Nagasu will certainly be first on the substitution list and I can't imagine that she will be passed over on the (likely?) chance that someone (Czisny? Ando?) will drop out. Zawadski, on the other hand, would have likely been passed over in the same scenario.

  10. #190

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    Has anyone stopped to consider that while Josh may had tweeted that he wanted a senior grand prix event, maybe his coach decided it was better for him mentally and physically to stay on the JGP circuit one more year?

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddlj View Post
    Nagasu will certainly be first on the substitution list and I can't imagine that she will be passed over on the (likely?) chance that someone (Czisny? Ando?) will drop out. Zawadski, on the other hand, would have likely been passed over in the same scenario.
    You are right: Nagasu will first sub except for a non-host substitution at USA and RUS, where there are already three US skaters, because Czisny requested the last GP due to surgery; she would have been first sub (or possibly already have two, if she hadn't made the request).

    She, Korpi, Biryukova, Korobeynikova, Shelepen, Li at least would have been ahead of Zawadzki, the Russian Skaters at USA, CAN, CHN, FRA, and RUS host pick substitutions, since there are already three Russian skaters at RUS and JPN.

    I can't tell from last year's behavior whether they give the Top 24 WS skaters events in SB order or in WS order. If SB order, Zawadzki would have been next. If in WS order, Meite and J. Helgesson would have been ahead of her.


    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Has anyone stopped to consider that while Josh may had tweeted that he wanted a senior grand prix event, maybe his coach decided it was better for him mentally and physically to stay on the JGP circuit one more year?
    If his coach felt this way, do think his coach didn't consult him and influenced USFS to leave him off the senior GP list without telling him?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #192

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    If Czisny drops out of her GP assignment, the skater with the best chance of a GPF spot will take it. Period.

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    You are right: Nagasu will first sub except for a non-host substitution at USA and RUS, where there are already three US skaters, because Czisny requested the last GP due to surgery; she would have been first sub (or possibly already have two, if she hadn't made the request).

    She, Korpi, Biryukova, Korobeynikova, Shelepen, Li at least would have been ahead of Zawadzki, the Russian Skaters at USA, CAN, CHN, FRA, and RUS host pick substitutions, since there are already three Russian skaters at RUS and JPN.

    I can't tell from last year's behavior whether they give the Top 24 WS skaters events in SB order or in WS order. If SB order, Zawadzki would have been next. If in WS order, Meite and J. Helgesson would have been ahead of her.



    If his coach felt this way, do think his coach didn't consult him and influenced USFS to leave him off the senior GP list without telling him?
    I actually think this is the main reason Zawadzki got two assignments - Mirai is first on the sub list and will get the second spot anyway. And Agnes now has two spots while many other skaters that are ahead of her on the season's best list still only have one and will likely stay with one. Strange situation.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Has anyone stopped to consider that while Josh may had tweeted that he wanted a senior grand prix event, maybe his coach decided it was better for him mentally and physically to stay on the JGP circuit one more year?
    Yes. It's certainly a possibility.

    I don't understand why so many people attach so much weight to the obviously impulsive tweet of a seventeen-year-old boy, as opposed to the rules of an international sports union and the standard practices of one of its member federations, particularly when the tweet was later retracted. It's as if they've never been or even known a seventeen-year-old boy themselves.

  15. #195
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    I just don't get why Zawadzki always gets so many cahnces
    she is even worst than Gao, imo

  16. #196
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    If Zawadzki gets 2, then IMHO Nagasu should have certainly gotten 2 as well.

  17. #197
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    Mirai didn't do well at nationals, and hasn't made it to worlds twice now. I think the USFSA made the right decision and Mirai is one of my favorites. Hopefully she'll get a TBA spot or something.

    I think Zawadzki deserved the 2 spots, when she's on she can beat some of the best which is why she was 1st after the sp at nationals. Her jumps are huge and she has great spins, MUCH better than Gao IMO, plus Agnes is the bronze medalist.

    As far as Dornbush getting 2 spots, I really don't agree with that. Jason Brown didn't have a 3A last year so he really should be junior still, we have so many other skaters in the men that can do quads and 3A's. Farris could go either way, it might be good for him to try and get a Junior Grand Prix title.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post

    I don't understand why so many people attach so much weight to the obviously impulsive tweet of a seventeen-year-old boy, as opposed to the rules of an international sports union and the standard practices of one of its member federations, particularly when the tweet was later retracted. It's as if they've never been or even known a seventeen-year-old boy themselves.
    Lol. I would think his coach would tell him if he thought it was better for him to stay on the JGP another season. I don't think that's what happened. I think USFS talked Josh's coaches out of it, without Josh knowing, likely bribing them by promising 2 JGP events, a likely trip to JGPF, and a trip to JW after nationals if he doesn't get a better offer in the form of 4CC and/or Worlds. Then once the assignments were released, Josh's coaches told him what the USFS said to them, thus explaining why he didn't receive an assignment, causing him to delete the tweet. This is the most logical explanation for what happened, USFS wants to be able to send him to JW if he doesn't make the world team, and they wanted to give Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush a better chance of getting 2 assignments since none of them were guaranteed 2, because without 2, none of them have a chance to make the GPF. I doubt any of them will make the GPF anyway, but USFS seems to think these 3 are the bees knees even though the international judges may think otherwise

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    How the heck did Flatt get Skate America over Gracie? Except for Ashley the US Ladies are underwhelming. Shouldn't SA get the best the US has to offer? I would take Agnes over Christina or Rachael.
    While you may be a huge Gracie fan, she hasn't paid her dues.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    How the heck did Flatt get Skate America over Gracie? Except for Ashley the US Ladies are underwhelming. Shouldn't SA get the best the US has to offer? I would take Agnes over Christina or Rachael.
    If you go back over the past several years' of Skate America assignments, you'll see that the USFSA usually tries to make sure that as many of its top senior-level skaters as possible get Grand Prix assignments. After giving the National champions invitation to Skate America (assuming they want it), the Federation tends to invite at least one skater per discipline, and sometimes two, who aren't likely to be invited anywhere else, like Douglas Razzano this year, Joelle Forte last year, and Caroline Zhang the year before that.

    The fact that Gao and Flatt weren't better than Zawadzki last season -- and Flatt's drawing power as a former National champion -- probably helped them get invitations.

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