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  1. #541

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    What FSU folks "pointed out" doesn't matter. The ISU and host federations decide. As long as there's no penalty for not following "rules", they are just guidelines. Some FSU folks pointed out that the Japanese and French federations didn't follow the GP assignment rules for men, but "rules" themselves have changed instead.
    Exactly. And that bothers me.

  2. #542

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    What section in the GP announcement allows the French Fed to bypass 1. the top-ranked Ladies skater in the Top 24 and 2. an eligible Ladies skater in the first group of five -- i.e., not already assigned; no three US Ladies already assigned -- to select a skater from the second group of five?
    Like its been said many times. Its not clear from that mess of an announcement if the Top 24 in SB are priority to get their 2nd event or whether they should go directly to pick from the groups of 5. The way the substitutes have been chosen Im inclined to think they are going by the later scenario.

    Then for the TEB after Korpi got COC and considering no russian ladies allowed the next 5 would be: Nagasu, Li, Gao, Lacoste, Joshie with Zijun being picked. After her withdraw they chose Gao again over Mirai. Not ideal, but within the frame of convoluted rules.

    In the end its all a matter of interpretation so they can turn around the rules as they please as long as its not explicitly forbidden.

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    Like its been said many times. Its not clear from that mess of an announcement if the Top 24 in SB are priority to get their 2nd event or whether they should go directly to pick from the groups of 5. The way the substitutes have been chosen Im inclined to think they are going by the later scenario.

    Then for the TEB after Korpi got COC and considering no russian ladies allowed the next 5 would be: Nagasu, Li, Gao, Lacoste, Joshie with Zijun being picked. After her withdraw they chose Gao again over Mirai. Not ideal, but within the frame of convoluted rules.

    In the end its all a matter of interpretation so they can turn around the rules as they please as long as its not explicitly forbidden.
    The rules state: "The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their season's best." They specifically call out this treatment separately from the Top 75 skaters. What we've discussed is that this contradicts the next statement, which is: "All skaters on the alternates list will be grouped in top ranked groups of (5) skaters, out of which the respective Organizing Member may pick one skater/couple for invitation." It does not say that as soon as one is chosen, someone from the next group down replaces the assigned one in the first group.

    I don't even like Nagasu's skating, so this isn't wuzrobbed because it was Nagasu who was bypassed. They do have resources who can write what they mean, not the mess they publish. The concept behind the new alternates rules starting last year is to stop host Federations from picking the cheapest and/or weakest competition for their own athletes. The difference between a skater who had the 11th highest score (173.22) and the skaters who had the 24th (157.70) and 30th (152.48) highest scores is significant, especially when compared to Silete (36th, 148.18) and Marrocco (69th, 126.97).
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 08-15-2012 at 08:37 PM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #544
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    Don't forget that Gao was a host pick at SA so the assignment at TEB is technically her first "real" assignment, so it makes more sense that Gao would get one assignment before Nagasu would get a 2nd.

  5. #545

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The rules state: "The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their season's best." They specifically call out this treatment separately from the Top 75 skaters. What we've discussed is that this contradicts the next statement, which is: "All skaters on the alternates list will be grouped in top ranked groups of (5) skaters, out of which the respective Organizing Member may pick one skater/couple for invitation." It does not say that as soon as one is chosen, someone from the next group down replaces the assigned one in the first group.
    That was also my point. There's a contradiction between option a) First top 24 SB then the others and option b) All possible alternates get chosen from groups of 5. And by the way the subs have been chose is clearly they are going with option b). and yes you can argue that is according to the rules to move the next in line to the "group of 5" once one skater is assigned because otherwise you will only be left with one skater with no other option by the time the fifth alternated needs to be picked. As long as it does not explicitly forbid it, the federations can get away with it and interpret these crazy rules the more convenient for them.

  6. #546

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    The ISU's inability or unwillingness to write clear, unambiguous rules is truly remarkable. I'm guessing they must like the flexibility this provides, or they would have sought assistance from someone competent at rule writing or at least posted draft-for-comment versions that can be picked apart before finalization. It truly is not rocket science. And they are clearly not rocket scientists.

    Using last year's original assignments, withdrawals, and lists they could have tested the procedure in a group and agreed, and then made sure the rules unambiguously specified what is to happen. The pattern of openings in GP assignments is not amazingly different from year-to-year: Host country skaters become injured or retire, invited non-host country skaters become injured or retire, previously highly ranked skaters who were out with injuries last year come back, and eligible retired skaters exercise the option to return, and then back out. Skaters make qualifying scores in recognized late summer internationals. Pairs/Couples break up and re-form in new pairings. Some host countries do not have three eligible competitors/teams for one or more of the events.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    ). and yes you can argue that is according to the rules to move the next in line to the "group of 5" once one skater is assigned because otherwise you will only be left with one skater with no other option by the time the fifth alternated needs to be picked.
    Why is that different than the initial selection, where there is a set order in which the Federations choose, and the last Fed to select gets whichever 1-3 seed, 4-6 seed, 7-9 skater/team doesn't have two, whichever split couple or Top 24 not Top 12 at Worlds who is guaranteed one and doesn't have one, etc.? It's too early to argue that it's too late to get a visa for a replacement skater, etc.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #548
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    Didnt the announcement come out after the initial gp assignments were announced? I thought they were
    making the rules fit whatever gp decisions that were already made

  9. #549
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    The announcement has been published after the initial selections for at least the last two seasons, but the at least some of the decisions/changes were discussed here before both the initial selection and the document came out.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #550

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    Don't forget that Gao was a host pick at SA so the assignment at TEB is technically her first "real" assignment, so it makes more sense that Gao would get one assignment before Nagasu would get a 2nd.
    So they are working through the list of skaters who were eligible for a non-host pick before they get to the sub list? Does that make sense?
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    No, it makes no sense.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    They do have resources who can write what they mean, not the mess they publish.
    Do they? Because the average ISU publication gives the impression that the ISU's primary objective is obfuscation, not clarity.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  13. #553
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    They do: they choose not to use them.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #554

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    Caitlin YANKOWSKAS / Joshua REAGAN are added to the roster for NHK, and Lindsay DAVIS / Mark LADWIG to Skate Canada: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3673

  15. #555

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    Updated today on the ISU site: 2nd GP assignments for Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig (Skate Canada) and Caitlin Yankowskas/Joshua Reagan (NHK) - they have been selected to replace Marley/Brubaker.

    ETA: I somehow missed seeing the post right above mine! Looks like Vise/Baldwin (the pair with the highest SB score with 1 GP) were passed over for NHK.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  16. #556
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    ^Excellent opportunities for D/L and Y/R! I've seen promising programs from D/L this summer. But, not too much from Y/R. I hope Y/R can start to 'gel' and bring it this Fall!

  17. #557

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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    Caitlin YANKOWSKAS / Joshua REAGAN are added to the roster for NHK, and Lindsay DAVIS / Mark LADWIG to Skate Canada: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3673
    Damn OF COURSE I forgot all new teams with a previous Top 10 partner have priority over the regular alternates.. dont like that rule at all..

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    Damn OF COURSE I forgot all new teams with a previous Top 10 partner have priority over the regular alternates.. dont like that rule at all..
    I think that GP ticket buyers would rather see Caitlin Y over a Baldwin brother.

  19. #559
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    That makes sense: the top of the alternates list is Split Couples who placed 7-12 at WC's with their previous partners, and Ladwig fills the bill. It also makes sense that they specified 7-12 and applied it to 6th place finisher Yankowskas

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    Damn OF COURSE I forgot all new teams with a previous Top 10 partner have priority over the regular alternates.. dont like that rule at all..
    Worse this year, since last year, they got one for each qualifying split (aside from host picks) -- Chock/Bates earned one each from previous partnerships -- but this year, they got a shot at initial assignments and, by being at the top of the list, were first in line for a second.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 08-20-2012 at 08:06 PM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiK View Post
    Damn OF COURSE I forgot all new teams with a previous Top 10 partner have priority over the regular alternates.. dont like that rule at all..
    Yes that's not fair at all to the already established teams.

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