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  1. #961
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  2. #962

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    I know what you mean Misha. What do you think (or from hearsay) is causing the tension in Canton now though, is it because of the whole dismiss of the coaching tandem or is it the training environment itself? I don't really have a clue either way, but if the tension was really bad or really negative I'm not sure why T/S would stay and since they're still there I have to believe things are at least still tolerable. But I'm gonna kinda of piggyback on what m_chenning was saying. In the last season I did notice a change in T/S. They started off the season really happy and excited and near they end they just didn't seem to have the same joy they had.

    Jess I love that picture/poster (or whatever it is).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    They won by a mile at Worlds. Tarasova is a pairs/singles coach. She's not an ice dance authority. .
    Hm... Yes, maybe first big results Tarasova had with pairs skaters (Rodnina-Zaitsev). But her first stars were Moiseeva-Minenkov, who was ice dancers. And then she made ice dance fashion with Bestemynova-Bukin. And Klimova-Ponomarenko won with her help OG. Then she made "Memorial" for G-P.
    So even if i think she wasnt right this time, she is ice dance expert for sure.

  4. #964

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    Subway I think I love you!
    I think I do too!

    Tessa and Scott have never expressed anything but satisfaction with their coaching and choreography. I don't think they're lying.

    And add me to the list of those who hope Virtue/Moir never go to Dean for choreography. Perhaps as professionals, but not right now.

  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Hm... Yes, maybe first big results Tarasova had with pairs skaters (Rodnina-Zaitsev). But her first stars were Moiseeva-Minenkov, who was ice dancers. And then she made ice dance fashion with Bestemynova-Bukin. And Klimova-Ponomarenko won with her help OG. Then she made "Memorial" for G-P.
    So even if i think she wasnt right this time, she is ice dance expert for sure.
    She's not, because she coached ice dance before CoP. So she still has no idea what she's talking about. Bestemyova-Bukin were a choreographic joke. If this is the style some people want Virtue Moir to skate I wonder sometimes why they're fans of Virtue Moir at all.

  6. #966

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    Didnt TAT worked with Kulikova-Novikov? They skated under CoP. And she helped Navka-Kostomarov before OG 2006.
    And i dont think fans want V-M skate something in BB style- just in T-D style or in there PF FD style
    But i like this BB FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=715u2o0FIAY

    And like i understand, Yu-Na wish to compete again, so maybe she will not have show in August.
    Last edited by pani; 07-02-2012 at 03:39 PM.

  7. #967
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    Okay, some thoughts.....

    a) The judges at Canadians got it exactly right re: V/M, imo. Their short dance wasn't well skated. While their FD was and the judges gave them huge marks, they were held in place by the technical panel (were the levels the same they got at the GPF, their score would've been above 115). And I'm gonna argue that the tech panel being so strict is what forced V/M to ensure they got those levels, which they did at 4CC, Worlds and WTT (compare that to D/W, who were treated more generously by their Nationals panel, but were behind V/M levelwise at the subsequent international events). It just looks incorrect due to the hideously massive overscoring Gilles/Poirier got (remember, according to the judges, G/P had a better free dance than C/P did the year prior, and that... no).

    b) Did I love "Funny Face" like I loved other programs from V/M. No. Does that mean it's a failure? No. But when you have "Malaguena" and "Valse Triste" and "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" and "Pink Floyd" and "Mahler" and "Latin Trio," well the range and brilliance of the programs herein is just inspiring to me.

    c) Tactically, I can see why "Funny Face" was problematic. It's a work in a narrow cultural idion (American Musical standard, 1950s). It's tonally the broadest work they've done, with the most range of personal expression. They're impersonating figures that some will have strong opinions on; others won't know anything about them and won't get the homage (it's not "Singin' in the Rain"). All these things represent a challenge for these two. I think they did it phenomenally well. I think the use of elements and transitions throughout is marvelous. I think the way they move to the music remains peerless. Their understanding of subtleties and nuance s'wonderful. Indeed, you can make an argument that the dance is slightly weaker because they choose the subtle over the grand (the change in the ending pose takes it from a grand broadway finale to a more cheeky wink, for example). I think it speaks to their drive that they did this dance this year and not next year (where they would have more hometown support to mitigate the narrowness). But yeah, tactically, taking on those challenges.... well, it provided a bigger obstacle when you're trying to reassert yourself at the top (it would be like D/W doing that tango against a fully training Latin Trio. It does them no favours)

    d) Was it really a Pyrrhic victory at Worlds? I don't think so. It wasn't a universally enjoyed one. But neither was Mahler in Turin. More than that, asserting that Tarasova's comments were down to the failure of the program is specious. They had a couple bobbles and weren't their full selves (I don't think we would've heard as many comments in V/M skated as they did at the GPF). Plus, it's hard to pretend Tarasova is speaking without politicks underneath. I think the only way the victory wouldn't be Pyrrhic for fans would be to have a universally applauded one. Won't happen, best get over it. Meanwhile, we also get very kind words from Krylova about this team after worlds.

    e) What did you enjoy about "Sweet Dreams" m_chenning? Because to me, it's flaws (trite and pretentious, string of tricks, unequal choreography designed to hide her technical weaknesses) were all I saw. I think if V/M were to go in that direction, they would suffer as their skills (remarkable unision and match, seamless choreograhy) would be diminished in favour of show. I loved "Eleanor Rigby" though.

    f) That's not to say I don't want them to seek outside help. Right now, V/M are like exceedingly gifted actors. With any director, they'll do exceptional work. So why not see what others do? Frank Capra and James Stewart were a remarkable team, but so were Stewart and Mann, Stewart and Ford, Stewart and Hitchcock. I wouldn't have given that up for the world. So, yeah, Haugenauer thinks little of them, but I'd like to see what Zhulin or Camerlengo or Steuer or Miyamoto would come up with. But given what Zoueva and Shpilband have done for them, I think they're in fine hands.

    g) Subway, if we're to speak to facts, lets point out that Judy Bloomberg dind't comment at this year's 4CC. She was on the tech panel. The one that gave D/W four level three elements and inspired massive hate from D/W fans. Which was amusing. Belbin commented at 4CC. Which was also amusing. But I certainly see where you're coming from re: discussion of V/M by their ubers

    h) m_chenning: "They had so much non-typical mistakes during the season. They cut out again their dances (rework them) . They had not that wave and confidence, that shine. IMHO "

    They ALWAYS rework their dances. The two years they didn't were the years of Tessa's surgeries. Farrucas was altered (the footwork changed, as did the closing pose). Watching Cherbourg throughout the season, and you see the work they did to improve the transitions and make everything more fluid. Now, if you're arguing they weren't as confident, I'm gonna argue it comes down to the GPF. They really wanted it, didn't get it, and made massive changes. Now, for post-Nationals talk that they didn't need to change the dance, there was just as much before about the SD didn't quite work as effectively as the FD did the year before. The changes didn't help, but changes were still needed. And the improvements made to Funny Face largely helped - they certainly promoted higher PCS.

    After the season, with all that's occured, it's easy to wonder about their training situation. We've heard about tension. We can infer it from comments made by the skaters. And make no mistake - this was a LONG season for V/M. They competed more in the 2011/2012 season more than they had in the previous two seasons combined (Finlandia, three GP events including Final, Nationals, 4CC, Worlds, WTT). That clearly wore them down (is it a surprise they peaked far earlier than they normally did?). We can speculate that the Canton tensions hurt as well. Next season is gonna be long as they have WTT again. I do hope they pace themselves well.

    i) For all the talk of lost joy, their moments in the "Up" number on CSOI were lovely, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" is vivacious and "Hallelujah" is their best ex ever. If this what they do when they're less than perfectly content with their training life, I might not be able to handle what they do when everything is perfect.

  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Hm... Yes, maybe first big results Tarasova had with pairs skaters (Rodnina-Zaitsev). But her first stars were Moiseeva-Minenkov, who was ice dancers. And then she made ice dance fashion with Bestemynova-Bukin. And Klimova-Ponomarenko won with her help OG. Then she made "Memorial" for G-P.
    So even if i think she wasnt right this time, she is ice dance expert for sure.
    She's not, because she coached ice dance before CoP. So she still has no idea what she's talking about. Bestemyova-Bukin were a choreographic joke. She could never choreograph a FF. B&B's winning fd with the take-a-dump moves (now evolved to the Besti squat) - what a joy. If this is the style some people want Virtue Moir to skate I wonder sometimes why they're fans of Virtue Moir at all. For me the problem seems to be how many fans love the team but want ice dancing to go back to the 1980s and 1990s. I think Tessa and Scott are not fans of that era. Scott especially talks all the time about being a fan of CoP. He has issues with some of the rule changes, particularly lifts, but in general, he doesn't seem to want to cut his sparse chest hair into a diamond shape or do a lot of hair and face figure skating with Tessa. He wants to dance.

    Sure, it's a taste when T-S were asking about PCS. And it's taste lets ice-dance.com and others to talk about "boring dance" , and again bring to the table "always first love dance"?
    Who at ice-dance.com said they were boring. Of course we can "taste" ice-dance. Do they think Marina is a lesser choreographer than Dean? Can I see the link. Virtue and Moir got jobbed in the PCs in a few places this past season - so you agree? This was a fair score? They weren't treated unjustly and underscored? It wasn't a trend last season to hype D/W and pretend every one of their skates were flawless? Some of the chattering classes among figure skating writers bitched out the results? Stop the presses - that never happens in figure skating because figure skating writers always know what they're talking about. The field is full of keenly informed CoP experts and unbiased observations.

    Anybody who thinks Christopher Dean, the recycle king, is an "innovative" choreographer when he hasn't done a new move since the early 1980s and is no CoP authority (look how C&P struggled with Eleanor Rigby so much of the post-Vancouver season) or is better than Marina is a person speaking from taste, yes, not what is best for Virtue and Moir. Virtue and Moir as figure skaters are both outspoken and opinionated. Both helping with their own choreography since they've been seniors. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to submit themselves to Dean like pieces of clay only to come out the other end with a piece of crap like Willa Wonka that would mortify them both. I suspect they are not fans of that choreography either, based on what they choose to skate for themselves in competition and exhibitions.

    Tension has more than one meaning. Tessa said it's exciting and they thrive on it. Let's ignore that. Ignore she used the words exciting and thrive, and all three top teams backed up what Tessa said by choosing to stay with Marina. Let's pretend it must be toxic so we can continue to hope maybe soon they'll turn into the worst of 1980s-1990s ice "dance." We can still hope they'll take the pesky ballroom out of their skating - ballroom meaning any and all identifiable dancing - and start acting out theatre on the ice, start doing modern dance cliche and become divas at last. Let's ignore that Scott and Tessa love to dance, are proud of being dance-centered ice dancers and believe true dancing is what sets them apart. I see that everybody cherry picks what Tessa and Scott say in order to support their point of view? The tension is bad. Tension of any kind is bad!! Forget Tessa said it's good, exciting. She used the word tension. Forget Scott has repeatedly expressed his faith in and respect for Marina. It's Tessa keeping that team with Marina while Scott's miserable and wishes to go to the DSC. But when it's important to take every word out of Tessa and Scott's mouth as gospel, let's insist on that.

    What's clear is people want Tessa and Scott to work with Dean and/or DSC. Or Tarasova. All theatrical stuff. Its not innovative, especially Dean. That's the politics, here, not in Canton. It's ice dance fans bored by dance rhythms and dancing on the ice, the thing that helped keep it a sport. Sweep aside that Tessa and Scott are the current World and Olympic champions, have won 2 of the past three Worlds, are the first North American team to repeat as World champions. Forget how last season Scott and Tessa said they changed their training, more quality, less quantity, that training adjustments and a desire to prove themselves instead of relaxing into their skating can impact clean performances.

    Many people have compared V&M to G&G. It makes me want to go to the archives and look at G&G's 1990 season where Katia was wiping out and making mistakes all the time. If only Marina had been identified as the culprit back then North America would have been spared her coaching the Olympic gold and silver medalists and the World gold and silver medalists of the past three years. Back then, if you archive the weekly magazines, the rumors of course were Sergei and Katia were fighting which was why she was wiping out. I am just amazed that fans of Virtue and Moir can look at a team that has managed to win Olympics, and win Worlds two out of three seasons, and still argue the team needs to dump their choreographer and quote people like Tarasova, who thrived in a different era completely. Maybe these people are mad Marina has adapted and they didn't. I can see so many jealous outside skaters and coaches drooling in hope of real tension at Canton, hoping the teams disperse and give their own skaters a chance in the fallout, or better yet, maybe if Canton falls apart one of these coaches will get to coach one of Marina's top teams. She's hogging the glory.

    All of this says a lot about ice dance politics, but not the politics at Arctic Edge. Anything to stop these wonderful dancers from being so boring and dancing all the time.

    Proustable, thanks for the correction. Who was the woman co-commenting with Belbin at the 4CCs? More specifically, who commented with her on D/W's fd?
    Last edited by Subway; 07-02-2012 at 04:20 PM.

  9. #969
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    ^^^

    Agree with a lot of all you said but not everything.

    I think the time has come to support them and not fight amongst our selves.

  10. #970
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    I think it was Andrea Joyce.

    As for the ice-dance.com, it was a twitter comment after the 4CC short dance. I don't even know if it's still up.
    Last edited by Proustable; 07-02-2012 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #971
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    I guess that my post was at the same time as Subway .
    Because I agree with Proustable and NOT subway.

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    People cite Dean's willy wonka choreo as a reason fr him being a bad choreographer but lets remember that he was working with a young team that had just come together.
    Remember stuff that he choreographed for himself and torvill? He did some great work for Anissina and Peizerat (btw I just realized that Marina's last name is a palindrome.)

  13. #973

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    I think it was Andrea Joyce.

    As for the ice-dance.com, it was a twitter comment after the 4CC short dance. I don't even know if it's still up.
    I think it was Tanith Belbin, who made comments on TV.
    And yes, this was twitt on ice-dance.com V-M were worst of three teams. But who cares about someone opinion, if ice dance isnt onle emotions, but technik and levels? And W-P wll never skate, like V-M even if all start twitting V-M are so boring
    You know today i re-watched some Navka programs and really wonder - what people find in this team? I mean there technic was so low level. V-M change ice dance a lot. I think now 10th team in the World skate better, then N-K. Yes, she is a Diva, but not skating diva and her patner was....

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    ^^^

    Agree with a lot of all you said but not everything.

    I think the time has come to support them and not fight amongst our selves.
    Both sides support them. But strong disagreements will happen when selective reality comes into play. On fsu so many people proceed as if it's a fact Canton is tense and oppressive, Tessa and Scott need the outside choreographer of fsuniverse's preference, and just forget this is exactly the type of choreography Tessa and Scott have rejected their entire career. They don't like it. It's one thing to look at the season, the pcs, and everything else, another to use the season as fuel for the same old argument, Marina sucks and it's urgent Scott and Tessa need to skate the choreography I prefer. Oddly enough, it's the sort of choreography that is least subject to objective evaluation. Maybe that's why it's so popular in some quarters. It's also a little odd to take a season where they won Worlds beating D/W handily as a disappointment. Easy for me to say. I love Marina's choreography, from G&G through V/M, D/W, the Shibs and the work she does for pairs. It's the best use of music in the business and I believe her results speak for themselves. Part of the reason I've not cared for some ice dancers of the past is I find the fd choreography ridiculous, bearing no relationship to dance at all. There are a team or two of the past - Anasina & Pezarat come to mind - who were such natural dancers and so musical that their talents could be appreciated as ice dance, shining through the kitsch, the diva and the tacky styling both choreographic and cosmetic.

  15. #975

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emdee View Post
    Because I agree with Proustable and NOT subway.
    I find myself agreeing with both of them.

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    You know today i re-watched some Navka programs and really wonder - what people find in this team? I mean there technic was so low level. V-M change ice dance a lot. I think now 10th team in the World skate better, then N-K.
    Totally agree.

    Also agree about W&P. They can be over the top. I was one of those who preferred C&P with their controlled technical skating. I saw C&P sitting onice at a show last year and they were spectacular live.

    G&P - we will have to see in three years or so.

    That being said I enjoyed Je suis and it made a great show program at CSOI. And WP have come a long way over the years, I have to say though that they got their levels and thats a great feat.

  17. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Both sides support them. But strong disagreements will happen when selective reality comes into play. On fsu so many people proceed as if it's a fact Canton is tense and oppressive, Tessa and Scott need the outside choreographer of fsuniverse's preference, and just forget this is exactly the type of choreography Tessa and Scott have rejected their entire career. They don't like it. It's one thing to look at the season, the pcs, and everything else, another to use the season as fuel for the same old argument, Marina sucks and it's urgent Scott and Tessa need to skate the choreography I prefer. Oddly enough, it's the sort of choreography that is least subject to objective evaluation. Maybe that's why it's so popular in some quarters. It's also a little odd to take a season where they won Worlds beating D/W handily as a disappointment. Easy for me to say. I love Marina's choreography, from G&G through V/M, D/W, the Shibs and the work she does for pairs. It's the best use of music in the business and I believe her results speak for themselves. Part of the reason I've not cared for some ice dancers of the past is I find the fd choreography ridiculous, bearing no relationship to dance at all. There are a team or two of the past - Anasina & Pezarat come to mind - who were such natural dancers and so musical that their talents could be appreciated as ice dance, shining through the kitsch, the diva and the tacky styling both choreographic and cosmetic.
    sorry, but you're doing exactly what you're "accusing" people to do. and you're exaggerating whatthe trend of the past was. obviously it wasn't everything kitsch and tacky.

  18. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Okay, some thoughts.....
    Proustable I really applaud this post. Really interesting and elegant points of argument, without aggressive undertones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Okay, some thoughts.....

    a) d) Was it really a Pyrrhic victory at Worlds? I don't think so. It wasn't a universally enjoyed one. But neither was Mahler in Turin. More than that, asserting that Tarasova's comments were down to the failure of the program is specious. They had a couple bobbles and weren't their full selves (I don't think we would've heard as many comments in V/M skated as they did at the GPF). Plus, it's hard to pretend Tarasova is speaking without politicks underneath. I think the only way the victory wouldn't be Pyrrhic for fans would be to have a universally applauded one. Won't happen, best get over it. Meanwhile, we also get very kind words from Krylova about this team after worlds.
    I think you need to look up the definition of Pyrrhic victory. I read this paragraph several times but I can't make sense of it. I think you mean something else but I'm not sure what.

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    "Someone who wins a "Pyrrhic victory" has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll and/or the detrimental consequences negates any sense of achievement or profit. There is, therefore, no reason to celebrate."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

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