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  1. #941

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Virtue and Moir are stars so they lend their prestige to skating events, not the other way around.
    That's what I think, too.

    Scott and Tessa seemed to have a wonderful time doing the Calgary Stampede. Very relaxed way to skate, interact with fans, and have a good time. A perfect summer event. What a great idea to make figure skating accessible to more people. I think everybody wants that. This is a great idea too. For years to come, Tessa and Scott will have plenty of chances to do big group numbers where they point a lot to pop music. I'm not crying over missing it this summer so far.
    Also, with Worlds coming up in Canada this is a great way to ramp up the excitement for figure skating right in their backyard. A ton of people will get to see them skate, and probably will enjoy it very much, who might not have been paying any attention to what's going on in figure skating right now. I see lots of positives.

  2. #942
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    happy canada day

  3. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Not sure. I have 2-3 Olympic ideas for D-W.
    1. Firebird.
    2. Shaherezada.
    3. Dance Macabre

    Plus i am sure Marina will made them "Swan Lake" for Sochi.
    And next season she will give them something, like V-M PF FD was.
    You forgot 'Carmen', unless they've already done it. And, Man in the Iron Mask!

    All of these are musical blueprints for theatrical programs. They're not as versatile as Virtue Moir, because Virtue Moir can just dazzle with their rhythmic and dance-style versatility, and D/W aren't as versatile. The tango fd from 2010-2011 was a chance to stretch, I'd say, and they very nearly lost to a Virtue Moir that was struggling in the last lap or so of their free dance in Moscow, the first time Virtue Moir were competing that fd! The tango was reworked a lot - I think it was very difficult for D/W to work in a variety of intricate close holds. The waltz was a fantastic program, but it's not a difficult rhythm, and Die Fleudermaus didn't have versatility in that respect that FF showed. Die Fleudermaus was a hybrid of dance and theatre. A nice basic dance rhythm - the easiest rhythm, with big sweeping phrases of music and big bold theatrical movements. If there's a down side it's - how do you top that?

    There are many War Horse pieces of music that D/W could skate to. This is going to distinguish them to gold in Sochi? I don't mean to be criticizing them because they're very strong. However, I can't feel worried about V/M's choices when I think D/W are going to have to go back to the well - the dramatic theatre pieces in which they don't need to demonstrate dance chops on top of skating skills. They can't win doing a dance program versus Virtue Moir in my opinion. The most objectionable scoring Virtue Moir received all season was at their own Canadians, not measured against D/W. They won 4CCs, they won Worlds by a very healthy margin against a fairly clean D/W.

    I disagree with you that Swan Lake would work for them, or a Pink Floyd sort of program. They have clear strengths, but a fairly narrow range. I think it was you who kept saying D/W's speed wasn't superior to Virtue and Moir's in Moscow 2010. I've been keeping an eye on that the best I can from TV, watching the ice coverage in a phrase of music, watching the boards blur by, and I think you're correct. D/W make a great flurry and hurry, but the raw speed and ice coverage is no longer superior to Virtue Moir. They are the team with the challenge, again, I believe this. Virtue Moir can do anything.

    Also, with Worlds coming up in Canada this is a great way to ramp up the excitement for figure skating right in their backyard. A ton of people will get to see them skate, and probably will enjoy it very much, who might not have been paying any attention to what's going on in figure skating right now. I see lots of positives.
    Oh yes, I forgot about that. Good for them. This is a real way to put themselves out there, be accessible. It's what Calgary Stampede did. Staying in town for awhile to perform makes them seem part of the community. That it's summer makes everything low pressure and almost neighborly. So far, I feel that the Skate Canada representatives have put their feet in their mouths when they promote the London worlds. They say the wrong things but also miss opportunities to create good will, not just towards vistors, but towards people in the backyard of Worlds itself. This is a little bit like - never mind all those politics. Skating is fun, we love it, come see us and then if you want you can see us do what we do in London in seven months.
    Last edited by Subway; 07-02-2012 at 01:37 AM.

  4. #944
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    The CNE is a sacred rite of summer. Its also a way to reach out to the ordinary canadian who knows nothing about figure skating. I think a lot of good sponsorships will come out of this outing.

    They will have the time to work in the mornings. Not solid workouts but maybe some spit and polish and I hope they do so.

    It will also give them a break from the tenseness in their rink and a chance to maybe explore new things without watchful eyes.

    I am hoping the programs incorporate their new programs as they did in that Disson dance event a couple of years ago.

  5. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    The waltz was a fantastic program, but it's not a difficult rhythm, and Die Fleudermaus didn't have versatility in that respect that FF showed. Die Fleudermaus was a hybrid of dance and theatre. A nice basic dance rhythm - the easiest rhythm, with big sweeping phrases of music and big bold theatrical movements. If there's a down side it's - how do you top that?
    I hardly know a person on this planet who thought Chan and V/M deserved to win. (See the Reuter quote in the article)
    Monica Friedlander

    What this victory with FF brought for T-S, it's like Pyrrhic victory - that's sad. I wish the indisputable superiority and memorable dances for them, for second OG they should surpass themselves, surpass all expectations. Now they under attack more than ever. That's why I'm not glad that they stay with Marina.

  6. #946
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    It will also give them a break from the tenseness in their rink and a chance to maybe explore new things without watchful eyes.
    Really? How do you know either of those things exist (tension at the rink and watchful eyes making sure they don't explore non-Marina sanctioned things, which I'll leap to assume you mean)? They're grown-ups. They like where they train. It's their choice. I agree with it. I think Marina Zoueva is the best for both D/W and V/M. They both know it too.

    What this victory with FF brought for T-S, it's like Pyrrhic victory - that's sad. I wish the indisputable superiority and memorable dances for them, for second OG they should surpass themselves, surpass all expectations. Now they under attack more than ever. That's why I'm not glad that they stay with Marina.
    I don't see the incentive to go to inferior and less successful choreographers, as tempting as it might be to please more fans at fsu. I'm not bashing other choreographers, but for my money Zoueva is the best of them. As to some but certainly not all people believing Virtue & Moir's victory was Pyrrhic; who cares? That's how figure skating works. If these people had informed opinions about skating, it might matter. Frankly, as Scott Hamilton, among others, has demonstrated his entire post-eligible career, often even other figure skaters are idiots when it comes to judging who ought to win and who shouldn't. In the sports press there are hardly any who know what they're talking about.

    Many need to not just get up to speed on the criteria, but educate their eyes instead of acting like CoP is written in Farsi, so they can let themselves off the hook about understanding it.

    I don't mean to single anyone here out, but it gets tiring to have projection and speculation taken as fact. There's no evidence whatsoever Virtue and Moir train in a hornet's nest, that there's unhealthy tension as opposed to productive competitive tension all three top teams see as a value add, or that they're manipulated by Marina against their best interests and have to sneak around to get the outside input some here think they need.

    Didn't Paul & Islam recently relocate to a more competitive environment? Aren't Virtue and Moir the reigning Olympic and World champions, the 2010 World champions, only experiencing major international defeat in a season when they only really showed up for the finale and had trained half as long as the winners? And still got silver? Are we supposed to yearn for them to leave so at long last they can win the GPF, as their failure to do so thus far is due to Marina Zoueva? Is it despite and not because of Zoueva's input they've gotten this far? I'm never clear because it's so difficult to follow people's trains of thought. Up until Davis & White elected to stay with Marina and not follow Igor, Igor was the Rasputin at Canton, politiking for Davis & White, some suggesting because of a relationship with Davis. As soon as Davis & White stayed with Marina, it was settled. Igor was the genius of the operation, the only one who had the skaters' best interests at heart. We can all throw away everything his critics ever said about his latin dances, his footwork sequences, his anorexic female ice dancers or his boring ideas about ice dance holds. He's been on Virtue and Moir's side all along and the fact that they didn't choose him is just more evidence Marina sucks at figure skating but is a genius at mind control.
    Last edited by Subway; 07-02-2012 at 03:29 AM.

  7. #947
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    It's definitely a challenging trail to follow.

  8. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    It's definitely a challenging trail to follow.
    IKR? After the Canton Coup, I got whiplash!

  9. #949
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    um, the last few times tessa and scott have been asked to describe their training situation, tessa has said that it's tense and the tension gets worse as the season progresses. that's a far, far cry from the "oh, we're best friends, lets make fluffs with us sprawled out on the ice to show what friends we are" that they used to put out. training with your biggest rival has always been tense, but the end of last season was the first time they acknowledged and stressed it -- which shouldn't be glossed over at all.

  10. #950
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    Right, the question then becomes is it productive tension or destructive tension. That they admitted to tension the same season their coaching team split up is certainly telling.

  11. #951
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    forget it...
    Last edited by iggie; 07-02-2012 at 04:04 AM.

  12. #952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post

    I don't see the incentive to go to inferior and less successful choreographers, as tempting as it might be to please more fans at fsu. I'm not bashing other choreographers, but for my money Zoueva is the best of them. As to some but certainly not all people believing Virtue & Moir's victory was Pyrrhic; who cares? That's how figure skating works. If these people had informed opinions about skating, it might matter. Frankly, as Scott Hamilton, among others, has demonstrated his entire post-eligible career, often even other figure skaters are idiots when it comes to judging who ought to win and who shouldn't. In the sports press there are hardly any who know what they're talking about.

    Many need to not just get up to speed on the criteria, but educate their eyes instead of acting like CoP is written in Farsi, so they can let themselves off the hook about understanding it.
    I agree with that. But this is fact that T-S were not looking like themselves past season. How many troubles they had with such " best" choreographer? Yes, we should say thanks for the Olympics but now I see that the the most interesting programme 2011-2012 for me was Sweet Dreams by Dean for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier. And his Eleanor Rigby for C-P is amazing for me. Rivalry is not looking effective anymore as we hardly could see clean and pure skating from T-S. So I'm so disappointed that even Tarasova said they should not have win with FF and that "best choreographer" said that "it's a pity that M-С were not the winners". I don't expect much from all that situation and without changes I can't see how they are going to win by a mile, like they should.
    Last edited by m_chenning; 07-02-2012 at 04:44 AM.

  13. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by m_chenning View Post
    I agree with that. But this is fact that T-S were not looking like themselves past season. How many troubles they had with such " best" choreographer? Yes, we should say thanks for the Olympics but now I see that the the most interesting programme 2011-2012 for me was Sweet Dreams by Dean for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier. And his Eleanor Rigby for C-P is amazing for me. Rivalry is not looking effective anymore as we hardly could see clean and pure skating from T-S. So I'm so disappointed that even Tarasova said they should not have win with FF and that "best choreographer" said that "it's a pity that M-С were not the winners". I don't expect much from all that situation and without changes I can't see how they are going to win by a mile, like they should.
    Yeah I thought that the Willy Wonka program was probably the most interestingly choreographed program. I wish we could see what he'd do with Tessa and Scott.

  14. #954
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    nt
    Last edited by Subway; 07-02-2012 at 05:02 AM. Reason: double post

  15. #955
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    I agree with that. But this is fact that T-S were not looking like themselves past season.
    It's a fact? They looked like themselves the whole season to me.

    How many troubles they had with such " best" choreographer? Yes, we should say thanks for the Olympics but now I see that the the most interesting programme 2011-2012 for me was Sweet Dreams by Dean for Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier. And his Eleanor Rigby for C-P is amazing for me.
    There you go, because Dean's programs sucked. VM can retire tomorrow and I'll never cry over not getting to see them skate like campy, out of sync circus clowns doing moves Chris Dean invented before Scott and Tessa were born. Damn it all. She'll never attach herself to Scott's thigh like an ornament on the prow of a ship, never do swim arms, never look like an extra in March of the Wooden Soldiers. Take heart because the way Dean choreographs Eleanor Rigby maybe some day before HE retires and after Scott and Tessa have left eligible skating he'll pull that sucker out of his pocket and make Scott and Tessa skate to it in a show.

    What you're talking about is taste. It's not facts. It always comes down to taste and not facts here with Virtue and Moir. A lot of posters want a theatrical or Dean style program. They interpret all behind the scenes happenings with a filter that lets them argue the theatrical or Dean program is all that can save their career and reptutation. This is taste. It's nothing else!

    Rivalry is not looking effective anymore as we hardly could see clean and pure skating from T-S.
    Really? That's the rivalry's fault? It's not politics - say, overscoring D/W for a bit, hyping them up? Being hypercritical of VM, as Tracey Wilson complained? Judy Bloomberg's commentary for 4CC's was a joke where D/W were concerned. And what makes us decide Tessa and Scott "struggled this year" (winning only Worlds and 4CCs over D/W, but losing the more prestigious WTT and GPF) because of the rivalry and choreography? How about their own reasons, the ones they told us - they wanted to prove themselves after getting bashed a whole lot last season for competing at all? That didn't affect their performance? It's the lack of circus make-up and camp, and not doing Dean's Eleanor Rigby program?

    I don't want to go to no go areas here but it's fascinating that on some topics what Virtue and Moir say must not be questioned. On others, feel free to ignore them! Ignore what they say about Marina, the rivalry, their programs, the coaching situation, and how they felt about last season and the reasons for certain performances. Bah. They're lying. All roads must lead to Dean or Carmalengo. Everything else is lies!

    So I'm so disappointed that even Tarasova said they should not have win with FF and that "best choreographer" said that "it's a pity that M-С were not the winners". I don't expect much from all that situation and without changes I can't see how they are going to win by a mile, like they should.
    They won by a mile at Worlds. Tarasova is a pairs/singles coach. She's not an ice dance authority. She has a certain taste. It's not subtle or nuanced. She's also a politician. I've got a few political opinions. For example, there were times I think D/W got away with murder this season. I think VM got screwed by their own judges at Canadians - the same judges that ridiculously overscored Gilles/Poirier. I think the Shibs got the shaft over and over, not including their own stumble (come to think of it, as one of the top three Canton teams, shouldn't they join VM and head to better coaches?) D/W weren't smooth and pure all season either, they just weren't held accountable. That's not Marina. That's Federations and ISU and the whole figure skating world wanting a close rivalry for commercial reasons, and also wanting to spread the wealth.

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    Alright this doesn't have to get heated. I didn't necessarily take emdee saying T/S can get away from tension for a bit, negatively. And this is the interview iggie was referring to. Tessa says they can feel the tension progress as the season progresses, but she says it's exciting and they thrive on it.

    ETA: I liked Gilles/Poirier FD from last season . But it wasn't my favorite either.
    Last edited by Shayii; 07-02-2012 at 05:36 AM.

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    The CNE sounds fun, and quintessentially local. I have such a fondness for summer fairs like the Calgary Stampede - on top of being festive and activity filled (and I am such a sucker for fair food), it's a wonderful gathering of so many different types of people and like someone else said, what a great way to endorse the sport at a venue that draws such diversity. And the sport couldn't ask for two better ambassadors. Here's hoping some of you get to go! And report back anything....ANYTHING.

    Any news on the cast for ATS August? The last I checked there didn't seem to be any news on the show at all. Which is just so curious.

    Happy Canada Day.

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    Subway I think I love you!
    My travel and adventure blog http://alisonanddon.wordpress.com

  19. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    It's a fact? They looked like themselves the whole season to me.
    For me- it is not so. They had so much non-typical mistakes during the season. They cut out again their dances (rework them) . They had not that wave and confidence, that shine. IMHO

    out of sync circus clowns doing moves Chris Dean invented before Scott and Tessa were born.
    If you see Dean's programmes like that- let it be.

    This is taste. It's nothing else!
    Sure, it's a taste when T-S were asking about PCS. And it's taste lets ice-dance.com and others to talk about "boring dance" , and again bring to the table "always first love dance"?

    Really? That's the rivalry's fault? It's not politics - say, overscoring D/W for a bit, hyping them up?
    Sure, it's T-S fault that they had to rework dances. That they had all season long problems with levels. Coaches have nothing to do with that- right you are. It's not the "best choreographer" PR-ed DF all season.

    They won by a mile at Worlds. Tarasova is a pairs/singles coach. She's not an ice dance authority. She has a certain taste. It's not subtle or nuanced. She's also a politician. I've got a few political opinions. For example, there were times I think D/W got away with murder this season. I think VM got screwed by their own judges at Canadians - the same judges that ridiculously overscored Gilles/Poirier. I think the Shibs got the shaft over and over, not including their own stumble (come to think of it, as one of the top three Canton teams, shouldn't they join VM and head to better coaches?) D/W weren't smooth and pure all season either, they just weren't held accountable. That's not Marina. That's Federations and ISU and the whole figure skating world wanting a close rivalry for commercial reasons, and also wanting to spread the wealth.
    Again. Right you are. Tarasova is "nothing" in ice-dancing for sure. We all were so glad past season. It was the best season for T-S and they were flawless and everybody were blown by masterpiece like FF. Nothing to worry about, Marina - she is always right. She knows better.
    Last edited by m_chenning; 07-02-2012 at 06:01 AM.

  20. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Alright this doesn't have to get heated. I didn't necessarily take emdee saying T/S can get away from tension for a bit, negatively. And this is the interview iggie was referring to. Tessa says they can feel the tension progress as the season progresses, but she says it's exciting and they thrive on it.

    ETA: I liked Gilles/Poirier FD from last season . But it wasn't my favorite either.
    they can put a smiley face on that tension, but to me it speaks volumes that they're mentioning it. they never did that before. canton was alway so, so perfect. they were asked about the training later in another interview and they brought up the tension again. they're the ones bringing up the tension. the questions aren't angled in that direction. as i said before, "tension" is their new talking point when it comes to their training, or at least it was post worlds.

    +

    weaver / poje's recent interview.

    In your opinion, what do you think the Detroit Skating Club has that the Arctic Edge Club doesn't have?

    Kaitlyn: Magic!

    Andrew: I think it is the whole atmosphere of the rink, we are all friends, we all look out for each other. That shows not only the friendships we have off the ice but also the atmosphere that we have on the ice to drive and push each other everyday to be the best skaters we can be. I think it's paying off in terms of all the success the club has had.

    http://www.artonice.it/?q=en/node/12009

    read into it what you will, but ... from inside and outside canton (dsc), word is that it's really, really "tense" in canton.

    anyway, i'm in toronto but i haven't been to the ex in years. the same is true for many torontonians. it's not the most amazing thing to do end of summer. at any rate, i don't see it as worth missing half a month of real, full training.
    Last edited by iggie; 07-02-2012 at 06:25 AM.

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