virtue and moir #18 - ruffles and truffles

[Subway]

sorry, but you're doing exactly what you're "accusing" people to do. and you're exaggerating whatthe trend of the past was. obviously it wasn't everything kitsch and tacky.

But it's true - that description characterizes not just a lot of the choreography of the time many here are most fond of, but also the impression of much of a general public of the time. There are always exceptions, but that was the trend. When first in seniors Scott spoke proudly of, basically, making ice dancing a real sport. What did we think he meant? This is the guy many think is best advised to turn his back on everything he's most proud of in his sport, like the dancing part.

Here, much of the time the discussion on Virtue and Moir is a group of posters arguing from any angle they can make up that Marina is holding Tessa and Scott back and Carmalengo and/or Dean is what they need. If this means they 180 on Igor without turning a hair, fine. The discussion involves, every season, many posters ignoring results, taking their own speculation as reality, and projecting what they want onto anything Tessa and Scott say, tossing out anything that doesn't back up what they want to happen. Which is, Virtue Moir need non-Marina choreography. No, they don't need it. Some posters want it, a difference many find unimportant. There's no evidence Virtue and Moir agree. In fact, they have - explicitly - the opposite point of view. But we don't have to let that stop us. Let's conveniently pretend that Virtue Moir are too brainwashed to have FSU's wisdom and are blind to the politics of their own rink which we understand so much better.

I just find that so insulting to them, all the skaters there, and also arrogant, because it's just twisting things to support what you want. It's also hilarious because nobody ever knows what's going on at Arctic Edge until Arctic Edge decides it's time for us to know. I don't count any poster who comes along afterwards and pretends to have been inside the loop the entire time, or piggybacks their pet theories onto the latest news. My head is still spinning from the 180 on Igor. He went from the rink Machiavelli putting the fix in for D/W to Marina sabotaged him because she's the one who has the fix in for D/W.

There's a co-theory that Scott is manipulated by Tessa, Marina and Meryl but left to his own devices he'd be skating diva-style. That's funny. Let's conveniently pretend that Virtue Moir or maybe only poor Moir are too brainwashed to have FSU's wisdom and are blind to the politics of their own rink which we understand so much better. Look at all the people who agree - rival skaters, rival training centers, former big name coaches or choreographers who haven't had Marina's success in this decade, the always-journalistic figure skating media overseas - all disinterested parties with no agenda but Tessa and Scott's best interest. There's no resentment, stirring the pot, cattiness or jealousy. Maybe it's time for that banner.

It's not - unlike Proustable's remarks - a terribly reality based discussion of these guys. It's a self-serving, speculation is fact discussion. If this is aggressive, I'm sorry, but that, too, is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's a nice change from passive-aggression.

[Zazy]

I find it a little strange that all of this hand-wringing was prompted by an article written by someone who has zero credibility in the figure skating world. Tarasova I can understand, but who really cares what this woman thinks? D/W's FD had the better audience response, anyone can see that, but I don't think she knows much if anything about ice dance. Plus she clearly has an axe to grind.

That said, I don't understand how anyone could say last season was a great success just because V/M won gold at Worlds. They clearly struggled at times and their victory was criticised by important people in the skating world. I agree Tarasova doesn't know much about COP dance, but she's still a big name in the sport and I would think has some considerable pull. And it's not like she hasn't been complimentary to V/M in the past, she absolutely loved Pink Floyd, for example. Then you've got Marina saying she's disappointed D/W didn't win, and, well, I don't even know what to say to that...

Saying their win is a pyrrhic victory is a bit much, though. D/W went through the same kind of season in 2010/2011, except probably worse: struggling with programs that were pretty universally panned, falls, people speculating they were unhappy, figure skating icons criticising their victory,etc. They were lucky they had this kind of season when V/M were not competing for most of it and seriously undertrained at worlds. Wouldn't the fact that a number of people thought they should have lost to a V/M team that frankly had no business being there be even worse than V/M's victory this year? And yet they showed up with very well-received programs the next season and did great this year. So I think program choice is more important than ever, but if they choose wisely, there shouldn't be a problem. Two FF-type years in a row would be a problem, but I trust V/M and their team will be smart enough to learn from their mistakes and steer clear of that. And really, a tough season like this could lead them to become better ice dancers in the future; I'm not sure we would have had the wonderful Olympic performances if it weren't for all the struggles of the 2009 season, for example. I can't wait to see what they have in store for us next year...

[Subway]

^^^ I love all these observations zazy.

Tarasova is a big name, and respected, but didn't she recently talk about how in the not-distant past she was grateful for commentating work because nobody had use for her at that time? I don't believe figure skating should throw out their talent, especially someone like Tarasova who is a great personality in the sport, but it's important to stay up to date on what the sport is like today. I don't believe her opinion on D/W versus V/M will have weight. I think also the new Olympic season is coming up and everybody is over praising Zoueva and Canton, that's so 2010-2011. Sochi is on the horizon and politiking is out in force. We can't let that training center do it again. Let's sow some dissension or at least make people look for problems.

It's almost a compliment that some are so desperate to elevate D/W over V/M. Which team really scares them more?

I might be the only one who finds this interesting, or the only one who has this angle on it, but I believe it's D/W who are in the more challenging situation. I think only Marina has the talent to build them the sorts of programs that keep them competitive with Tessa and Scott. If this is too uber, so be it, because I think Tessa and Scott are that much better and have reached par or better with D/W's speed and power. They really struggled with the 2010-2011 tango program and ultimately reconfigured it so it looked a bit more like what we see from them - a bit more of their comfort zone. Sure we can all come up with a long list of traditional skating pieces for D/W, but what are they going to do with them that can top Die Fleudermaus, the masterpiece that got silver at Worlds? Except for 2010-2011, D/W have always remained protected inside their choreography. It maxmizes their strengths and finesses problems. 2010-2011 was the year they won Worlds, but I agree with Zazy that it wasn't a reassuring season for D/W. It didn't confirm that they could stretch, master a different style and change it up. They got through it, but they ended up taking out a lot of things they were unable to master. Their new choreography can't simply pick something off the menu like Swan Lake or a Pink Floyd. They have to be able to do it convincingly, and compete with VM. I think if they intend to do any sort of departure, they don't have many choices. If they stick with what's worked for them it may seem anti-climactic after POTO and Die Fleudermaus. VM have shown they can do anything, and they don't have that problem.

[pani]

But nobody talk D-W still use one style during all years. But people talk this about Tessa and Scott.
I agree next season will show is V-M smart enough or they just didnt understand they need to grow up for win OG.
And honestly i think its good they had not such great FD, like Mahler (for example). Nobody could show there best every season (maybe only D-W ).
But if next season they will not have good programs- this will be not because of Marina, Meryl or SC. This will be because of there own choice. So will see - they are both adults and i am sure they knew, what Marina said at WCh. So they choose to be in this situation on there own reason. At least they have all golds in the World and could do what they want - to stay where they want and skate FF-2, if they want. We could only watch competitions and enjoy or not skaters programs.

[Shayii]

That said, I don't understand how anyone could say last season was a great success just because V/M won gold at Worlds. They clearly struggled at times and their victory was criticised by important people in the skating world. I agree Tarasova doesn't know much about COP dance, but she's still a big name in the sport and I would think has some considerable pull. And it's not like she hasn't been complimentary to V/M in the past, she absolutely loved Pink Floyd, for example. Then you've got Marina saying she's disappointed D/W didn't win, and, well, I don't even know what to say to that...

Saying their win is a pyrrhic victory is a bit much, though. D/W went through the same kind of season in 2010/2011, except probably worse: struggling with programs that were pretty universally panned, falls, people speculating they were unhappy, figure skating icons criticising their victory,etc. They were lucky they had this kind of season when V/M were not competing for most of it and seriously undertrained at worlds. Wouldn't the fact that a number of people thought they should have lost to a V/M team that frankly had no business being there be even worse than V/M's victory this year? And yet they showed up with very well-received programs the next season and did great this year. So I think program choice is more important than ever, but if they choose wisely, there shouldn't be a problem. Two FF-type years in a row would be a problem, but I trust V/M and their team will be smart enough to learn from their mistakes and steer clear of that. And really, a tough season like this could lead them to become better ice dancers in the future; I'm not sure we would have had the wonderful Olympic performances if it weren't for all the struggles of the 2009 season, for example. I can't wait to see what they have in store for us next year...

I agree with this. I can't say I think T/S's season was a complete success even though they won the gold at worlds. And even that was a bit marred with all the noise that they didn't deserve to win over D/W, something they paid for at wtt. If they have "another" FF next season then I just don't know because next season I think they are gonna be a lot more scrutinized that they were the last one.

But nobody talk D-W still use one style during all years. But people talk this about Tessa and Scott.
I agree next season will show is V-M smart enough or they just didnt understand they need to grow up for win OG.
And honestly i think its good they had not such great FD, like Mahler (for example). Nobody could show there best every season (maybe only D-W ).
But if next season they will not have good programs- this will be not because of Marina, Meryl or SC. This will be because of there own choice. So will see - they are both adults and i am sure they knew, what Marina said at WCh. So they choose to be in this situation on there own reason. At least they have all golds in the World and could do what they want - to stay where they want and skate FF-2, if they want. We could only watch competitions and enjoy or not skaters programs.

I also don't see D/W struggling next year as much as Subway is implying. I think they're seen as the more versatile team by a lot of people because they repeatedly have the more crowd friendly and audience pleasing programs, set to different themes/stories (whether that actually makes them more versatile IDK). V/M on the other hand, there are more people that feel all they do are romantic programs, they don't stretch themselves and are boring, boring, boring than there are people that do feel they are versatile and show variance in their programs.

Also Subway I don't think some people wanting to seeing what other choreographers would do with V/M is such a bad thing. It'll just be them getting a different perspective from the one they are right now--I think Proustable said it best in the actors analogy used.

[michiruwater]

Can we stop using the phrase 'Pyrrhic victory' please?

A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately lead to defeat. Someone who wins a "Pyrrhic victory" has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll and/or the detrimental consequences negates any sense of achievement or profit. There is, therefore, no reason to celebrate.

It makes no sense whatsoever to characterize any figure skating win as Pyrrhic unless the victors broke their legs or something and will never be able to compete again. Just because you think D/W should have won does not mean that V/M's win was 'Pyrrhic'. That is the epitome of ridiculous melodrama and it's nonsensical, to say the least.

[jl22aries]

I think we can all agree that their win was not pyrrhic. We're all on the same point, no? Nevertheless, I really enjoyed learning this new word and think it is a rather interesting take on certain sport victories.

Let's all have a cocktail break and reeeelaaax. I'll buy the first round. Golly, where are you clarie and bkf?

[Shayii]

I think we can all agree that their win was not pyrrhic. We're all on the same point, no? Nevertheless, I really enjoyed learning this new word and think it is a rather interesting take on certain sport victories.

Let's all have a cocktail break and reeeelaaax. I'll buy the first round. Golly, where are you clarie and bkf?

Lol I'll take a midori sour then please. But seriously where is everybody else? Come back!

[Emdee]

Everybody is enjoying Canada Day!

I had two lovely days at the cottage and have to rest at home after all the entertaining so am trolling the boards. Weather in Toronto is beyond fabulous.

[Subway]

I can't say I think T/S's season was a complete success even though they won the gold at worlds. And even that was a bit marred with all the noise that they didn't deserve to win over D/W, something they paid for at wtt. If they have "another" FF next season then I just don't know because next season I think they are gonna be a lot more scrutinized that they were the last one.

I can't take WTT seriously even if the ISU wants us to.

I can't say I think T/S's season was a complete success even though they won the gold at worlds.

I'm curious what would constitute complete success? What's that season look like?

And even that was a bit marred with all the noise that they didn't deserve to win over D/W, something they paid for at wtt.

I don't think one follows the other or that the noise in some quarters - always there, every season - had anything to do with WTT. Or that noise was especially loud this year. Everybody's politicking. Sochi is coming up. Everybody is trying to have influence.

What is the "relevance" of the noise? What does that have to do with VM's win potential? Have the rules been changed to a popular vote? Do we know VM would lose that? Has there been a year everyone agreed the winner was the right winner, nobody complaining?

If they have "another" FF next season then I just don't know because next season I think they are gonna be a lot more scrutinized that they were the last one.

I hope so because they can only benefit from more scrutiny. The difficulty and quality of what they're doing can only more clearly emerge. D/W no longer having the edge with speed and power will become more apparent to more observers. Bring on the scrutiny. What is it about FF that was problematic? Is it more than the points made by Proustable? That's just noise on the internet (it not being supposedly fan friendly, for reasons Proustabe articulated) and internet noise exploited by some commentators with agendas. It's only going to increase. FF was a difficult program built to flourish under scrutiny. I hope next season's program is as difficult.

Originally Posted by pani

But nobody talk D-W still use one style during all years. But people talk this about Tessa and Scott.

That's untrue. "People" say D/W are all fast fast fast, too rushed, don't hold their moves, don't show the same control, don't have physical versatility of VM. Lack unison. I never paid attention to Meryl's dangling free leg until fans picked at it.

There's always noise on the internet from fans or interested parties, banging the drum. That's what it is - noise. People said Michelle Kwan was boring - even journalist type people, and she should see the writing on the wall with Sasha's arrival. It's noise.

I agree next season will show is V-M smart enough or they just didnt understand they need to grow up for win OG.

I think every season so far has showed them to be plenty smart and the people who understand their career better than any fan. They've been grown up a long time, and I couldn't be happier.

But if next season they will not have good programs- this will be not because of Marina, Meryl or SC. This will be because of there own choice. So will see - they are both adults and i am sure they knew, what Marina said at WCh. So they choose to be in this situation on there own reason. At least they have all golds in the World and could do what they want - to stay where they want and skate FF-2, if they want. We could only watch competitions and enjoy or not skaters programs.

Where would this bad program come from? Why is this something people worry about? Do you mean bad program again? Like the bad program they won Worlds with by 3 points over the D/W masterpiece? I hope we don't get a disaster like that again.

I enjoy their programs, many people do considering the youtube hits they get the second a new program is unveiled. I don't think they've had an unsuccessful program since Malanguela (which won them Jr. Worlds?) and I wasn't in love with Dark Eyes. The difference between them and D/W only works in their favor when scrutiny intensifies. Their only problem is they have close rivals. It wouldn't be as exciting if they didn't.

I also don't see D/W struggling next year as much as Subway is implying. I think they're seen as the more versatile team by a lot of people because they repeatedly have the more crowd friendly and audience pleasing programs, set to different themes/stories (whether that actually makes them more versatile IDK).

It doesn't because as it's ice dancing, versatility is shown in different rhythms and tempos, in dance - not story. Theme is meaningless. How does consistently having more crowd pleasing programs show versatility? It seems to me that proves they're less versatile if D/W consistently choose that direction. Theme and stories has nothing to do with figure skating versatility, although they're not diverse in that respect either. Theatrical stories is a genre. Anyway, story is just a point of access, a cherry on the sundae. How do the lot of people who think D/W are more versatile impact the judging next season and for the Olympics? A lot of people think VM are a whole lot better. Which bunch of people are going to sway the judges?

I don't know for sure D/W will struggle next year, but Die Fleudermaus, in my eyes, maxed out what they do best - the excitement, speed, drama, all set to familiar dramatic music with clear cut, not challenging, rhythms, easy for the audience to get swept along. Better still, as it happened to be such an explicit dance rythym, the waltz, they finally appeared to be dancing. Every base covered. Can they top it? If they do another familiar, big, sweeping, busy-looking, exuberant seeming program will it be an anticlimax? The other option is - switch gears. Can they? They're not VM, they don't have that rhythmic diversity and control. The tango won them Worlds but against a hobbled Virtue/Moir and overall I wouldn't say that was encouraging, or showed the results maybe they and their coaches hoped for. I think it's a huge challenge, one I imagine Marina will be able to meet, but I'm super curious, because it seems daunting to me.

V/M on the other hand, there are more people that feel all they do are romantic programs, they don't stretch themselves and are boring, boring, boring than there are people that do feel they are versatile and show variance in their programs.

It's ice dance. They do different rhythms and different dances. That's the difference that counts in their sport. And - can I see where you get your statistics please? I believe Saraharain took that one down in a great post not long ago. Every time they unveil a new dance it gets huge amounts of hits overnight on youtube. I think there's no basis for what you just said, outside of the same people I was talking about, the people who are frustrated because they want Tessa and Scott to do non-Marina choreography. So really, that's not an argument.

Also Subway I don't think some people wanting to seeing what other choreographers would do with V/M is such a bad thing. It'll just be them getting a different perspective from the one they are right now--I think Proustable said it best in the actors analogy used.

Virtue and Moir aren't actors - a detail which seems lost on some people. They're competitive, ambitious athletes who want a second gold medal. Why do they need a different perspective? All things considered, my perspective is if you're with the best, there's no need to go to someone else. Marina has created tons of versatile programs with incredible musical variety for Virtue and Moir. They've excelled at all of it. They feel she's the best around. I don't believe they want to go to someone they consider not as good just for variety for its own sake. I agree with them, obviously, but the point is, that's what they think. They think she's the best. Therefore, there's no incentive to go to someone lesser for their competitive seasons. They get David Wilson and perhaps others when they do shows. It's not a bad thing to want another choreographer, but it's become the agenda around which every Virtue and Moir discussion here orbits. The answer is always leave Marina, and it doesn't matter how many gears have to switch, positions reverse, or speculation taken as fact to keep saying that's what they need because it's what a handful of fans want. The Canton coaching situation was a tour de force of gear switching and changing tunes.

They're elite athletes; they are not actors. The analogy is really to argue that an athlete should go to a less successful coach just for the experience, even if he's won all of his or her championships under the coach he or she has, the best in the world. Should the Yankees have kicked out Joe Torre in the 1990s just to get a different perspective? Didn't people pass out in shock when Michelle Kwan ditched Frank Carroll before 2002? Why didn't they applaud her for wanting a different perspective?

Obviously, there are people who believe that Marina is not the best in the world, or at least they're tired of her, which to them is the same thing, so they want VM to go elsewhere. And they fix on outside comments that agree with their own opinion - they're bored, therefore VM are boring. They're tired of it, therefore VM need to change.

The problem is VM don't agree with those people. Their competitive results don't agree either. Many fans don't agree too. I think a lot of the so called problems are nothing but what a competitive career looks like, have nothing to do with Marina, and are otherwise a tempest in a teapot. However some people will never stop saying Tessa and Scott need to skate to someone else's choreography for the simple reason that's what they want Tessa and Scott to do. So whatever the topic or perceived problem, it can be addressed by leaving Marina. But no, that's not agenda. Oh no. That's looking out for VM.

I find it sad and ironic from VM fans, because everything Scott and Tessa love about the sport, everything they're proud of in their career, is apparently the stuff that bores some of their biggest fans. They love Scott and Tessa for some reason, but hate their taste, are bored by dance and don't appreciate the incredibly difficult rhythms they skate to or musical diversity they show. They're growing increasingly frustrated that their dream of Dean or someone else won't come true - but why do they have that dream in the first place? That's not Tessa and Scott. Tessa and Scott aren't cooperating even though every time there's a burp in the atmosphere it's taken as a sign that they wil leave Marina. And they don't. So let's look for reasons why they should.I didn't see anyone out there producing like Marina, as sensational marrying music to movement as Marina. In her use of momentum, the building of suspense, her placement of highlights (twizzles, especially), her taste, her intelligence, her judgment - IMO unmatched. She's not where she is by accident, and she's not there because she's backstabbing one team in favor of another. It's because she's the best and isn't that what a competitive athlete wants in a coach?

To squeeze in one more comment, there was some mid-season talk about Marina giving D/W Die Fleudermaus and VM Funny Face (compared to That's Entertainment, by some, which - I can't even). Marina and Igor actually gave D/W Le Strada and VM Funny Face. The USFSA was unenthused by what they saw at Champs Camp. So came Die Fleudermaus, after Funny Face.

[walei]

Subway,

Thank you for your posts.

[Shayii]

Alright Subway, it looks like it's either your way or the highway. What makes everything you're saying anymore credible than what anybody else is saying? Do you have stat to back up everything you're saying? You think Marina is the most talented and amazing choreographer/coach out there and some people obviously don't share the same vision as you, but what makes that opinion so much "absurd" that everything you've said? I don't care who T/S's coach/choreographer is, but I don't think wanting to see a contemporary, interesting program from them next season, means I "hate their taste, are bored by dance and don't appreciate the incredibly difficult musical diversity they show." Look I don't hate FF, but I certainly don't love it either; is it so bad that I hope the program they'll have next season is something that I'll love--I could care less if it's Zoeuva's choreo or somebody else's.

[Subway]

Alright Subway, it looks like it's either your way or the highway. What makes everything you're saying anymore credible than what anybody else is saying? Do you have stat to back up everything you're saying? You think Marina is the most talented and amazing choreographer/coach out there and some people obviously don't share the same vision as you, but what makes that opinion so much "absurd" that everything you've said? I don't care who T/S's coach/choreographer is, but I don't think wanting to see a contemporary, interesting program from them next season, means I "hate their taste, are bored by dance and don't appreciate the incredibly difficult musical diversity they show." Look I don't hate FF, but I certainly don't love it either; is it so bad that I hope the program they'll have next season is something that I'll love--I could care less if it's Zoeuva's choreo or somebody else's.

What matters, Shayii, is Scott and Tessa think and have said Marina is the best and most amazing choreographer, not that I agree. It matters that the results bear out Scott and Tessa's opinion. Maybe a few fans don't count last season as a complete success, but as the goal Scott and Tessa themselves said they had for the season was to get their title back, I think they disagree. They appear to have different goals for their career than some fans at fsuniverse, yet fsuniverse blows by that all the time, or patronizes them as mind-prisoners of Marina. If we can only get word to them about what's really happening before they end up three time World champions and repeat Olympic gold medalists with that terrible choreography! If not they'll retire and it will be too late. What a waste. That's just so insulting from so-called fans, but it's routine here.

I can't answer your other questions because nothing in my post justifies them. That's just your reaction to them.

I stand behind the theme of my past few posts. Just about every prolonged discussion among VM fans on fsuniverse turns into a group of fans flogging their personal agenda for VM to leave Marina, and the facts be damned. Every single thing that happens is used for that argument, even if it means making an about face on everything someone has said before. That's what's frustrating - the agenda behind the discussion. At the end of the day it's frustration because some fans want VM to skate to different stuff, so no discussion about them is possible because it all has to be grist for that agenda. I have no problem calling it out because it's true. It doesn't matter what people want or prefer because everybody has different taste. FSU takes it to another level. Twisting facts, carjacking discussions, talking like speculation is reality and jumping to conclusions all to support personal taste does matter to me.

Why is it a problem to say it - it's dominated VM fsu discussion for years. Dean and Carmelengo are always the answer, the question is irrelevant. I object to all topics, events, competitions and just about everything to do with VM becoming irrelevant just because it's more important everything be used for propaganda in the purely imaginary campaign for them to leave their coach. I find the whole thing degrading to them from so-called fans. I'm not trying to canonize Marina, but I'm personally sick of every single angle of Virtue and Moir's career being purposed to fuel people complaining that VM need to go to the choreographer they want, and some even admit that winning Worlds doesn't matter if they don't. That's just dumb.

[taf2002]

I agree with this. I can't say I think T/S's season was a complete success even though they won the gold at worlds. And even that was a bit marred with all the noise that they didn't deserve to win over D/W, something they paid for at wtt.

That's ridiculous. It's like saying since V/M won at Worlds they should automatically win at WTT, that is unless they are being "punished". V/M are not robots, they don't skate exactly the same every time, so their loss at WTT has nothing to do with some people's feeling they shouldn't have won at worlds. Besides, have you ever seen any comp where someone didn't cry wuzrobbed?

[m_chenning]

What did you enjoy about "Sweet Dreams" m_chenning? Because to me, it's flaws (trite and pretentious, string of tricks, unequal choreography designed to hide her technical weaknesses) were all I saw. I think if V/M were to go in that direction, they would suffer as their skills (remarkable unision and match, seamless choreograhy) would be diminished in favour of show. I loved "Eleanor Rigby" though.

I enjoyed the conception of the dance: first part-"welcome to the dream"-look, how everything is strange and slow and irrational, but "We'll begin with a spin traveling in a world of my creation" (and it's really a spin), than beautiful lift in a lunge ( arching )- don't know how to describe, it's right to the music- all transitions and moves are looking angular (but for me- "it's not a bug, it's a feature")- and I like when Piper makes cool move- the splits on the Paul's back. All moves perfectly illustrated the theme of the dance (for me) ; second part- "this is what the dream about!" (what sweet dreams are made of...) - something scary, not sweet, and it's beginning with twizzles section, and than like "let's misbehave"- and again, all awkwardness looks proper (how should it be in a dream like this), interesting lift ...again. From this moment the rhythm of the story becoming faster, more rowdy-dowdy- public at Nationals applauded them, and than third part- "calm down, it's only a dream". Dance is creative and perfect for such team.

(oh, I hope I managed to make it clear)

That's how I see it.

I like Dean's choreo and how it's fit and hold all story. From this moment I'm not going to defend my preference, such legend don't need it. That's all.

----

For the record: I really like only 3 dances by Camerlengo

-Carnival in Venice
-Bonnie and Clyde
-At Last / cheek to cheek

[Shayii]

Sigh...everybody has opinions and they're entitled to that opinion and yours don't bother me Subway, but I what I perceive as a condescending tone in your posts did rub me the wrong way. That's all, but I'll stop now.

That's ridiculous. It's like saying since V/M won at Worlds they should automatically win at WTT, that is unless they are being "punished". V/M are not robots, they don't skate exactly the same every time, so their loss at WTT has nothing to do with some people's feeling they shouldn't have won at worlds. Besides, have you ever seen any comp where someone didn't cry wuzrobbed?

Sorry, that's not what I meant to imply in that post. Wrong choice of words. I don't believe they deserved to automatically win just because they won worlds. I felt like their performance of FF at wtt was one of their best (IMO) last season and I believed it didn't reflect in the scores; that's what I meant by stating they "paid" from the backlash from worlds.

[lauravvv]

And like i understand, Yu-Na wish to compete again, so maybe she will not have show in August.

The new title in the 'All That Skate' site is 'All That Skate Summer 2012' - http://allthatskate.com/2012Spring/eng/index/. And the schedule/dates are already up. The dates are August 24 to 26. In 'Skaters' and 'Tickets' sections it's written "coming soon". If the show is already planned, then Yuna's decision to compete next season won't change anything, except, probably, her own programs for the show (meaning, new exhibitions won't be choreographed for it). I personally am waiting impatiently for the cast to be announced. Until now, the 'All That Skate Summer' casts have been even more impressive than the 'ATS Spring' casts, as no other Korean skaters (except Yuna herself) are taking part. I am also really hoping to see Tessa and Scott in that cast (and in the show itself, of course ).

[Emdee]

If Tessa & Scott are in the CNE then they wont be in Yuna's show - this will be a first for them, I think. They have skated in Yuna's shows from way back when they were juniors. Maybe D&W will be skating at Yuna's show.

Actually with flights and jet lag the time taken for Yuna's summer show will be only a little more than performing at the CNE. Especially if they are not doing a show at the Stampede which they have done before. They did not do the spring show either as they were on CSOI instead.

[pani]

O, i dont want V-M will give even Yu-Na show to D-W. Please
I think in July Meryl and Charlie will made Japon SOI.

[Emdee]

I think T&S have usually been the only dancers in Yuna's show. They were not there in the Spring version and she didnt replace them with another pair of dancers - this is as far as I recall so D&W may not be there. Even when they were doing Umbrellas there was a banner in the crowd from Korean Fans of Virtue & Moir so its likely they even went there as juniors or in their first senior year. Last year Patrick did the spring but not the summer show which had a lot of skaters who were retired. Patrick and T&S did the summer show when it was in LA.

The only dancers in Japan SOI for 2012 are the Kerrs according to Kurt files.