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  1. #21
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    Pertinent portion of ISU Rule 109:

    2. a) In principle, a Skater may compete only as a member of the Member of the country of which he is a citizen;

    b) a Skater may compete for the Member of the country of which he is not a citizen if he fulfils the following conditions:

    i) he has resided for at least one year in that country and has been permitted to compete for that Member by the National Association of the country of which he is a citizen, or he has resided for at least one year in that country and he (or his parents if he is not of age) has applied for citizenship in that country;

    ii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first International Competition as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twelve (12) preceding months;

    iii) before July 1st immediately prior to his first ISU Championship as a member of the Member, he has not competed in any International Competition or ISU Championship for another Member during the twenty-four (24) preceding months;

    iv) Any denial of a request for permit by the Member submitted in accordance with sub-paragraph (i) above may be the subject of a request to the Council by the involved Skater or any involved Member for exceptional permission as provided in paragraph 5 of this Rule;

    c) in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;

    ....

    3. If a Skater, who has already represented one Member in an International Competition or ISU Championship, intends to compete in the future for another Member, regardless of the grounds on which the possibility of such change is based, such Skater shall be subject to the waiting periods set forth in subparagraphs 2 b), (ii) and (iii) above.

    ....

    5. Exceptions to paragraphs 2 & 3 of this Rule may be granted by the Council of the ISU, which may also enter a competitor for an event (see also Rule 115, paragraph 5 and Rules 130 and 131). A competitor nominated by the ISU does not count in the quota of the country of his citizenship or residence. The Council may also reject an application from a Member for a permission that a Skater who has or had foreign citizenship may compete for that Member, although the formalities and requirements stated in this Rule have been met, if in the opinion of the Council granting such application would be contrary to the purpose and spirit of the Rule. (e.g. in case that a Member tries to “import” several athletes with foreign citizenship, in particular when such athletes should form a new national team of such Member or its substantial part)....
    I find it difficult to believe that Kocon would ever have renounced his French citizenship. (In fact, I have some vague recollection that he has some Italian ancestry, so he may have had Italian citizenship before he ever teamed up with Nicole Della Monica). IINM, even if he did, he could get it back easily.

    Kocon has already sat out a year, so, if he is still a French citizen, he can skate pairs for France whenever he wants.

    Iliushechkina moved to France earlier this year. The date she started living there is the starting point for the one-year minimum period for sitting out competitions. However, she did compete in two Grand Prix events in 2011, so she has to sit out the entire 2012-13 season. At that point, since she has apparently already applied for French citizenship, there is nothing the Russian Federation can do to stop her because they can't stop her from competing.

    IIRC, Marina Anissina, Lloyd Jones, and Vanessa James all obtained French citizenship fairly rapidly, so there is a good chance that Iliushechkina can obtain French citizenship before the next Winter Olympics.

    Now, as yourselves, how likely is it that the Russian Federation would send Iliushechkina and whatever partner they might team her with to Euros or Worlds next season? Not very, if you ask me. So, at most, if she stays with Kocon, she misses out on a few Grand Prix events next season and maybe in 2013-14. Big deal.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 05-20-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Pertinent portion of ISU Rule 109:

    c) in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;
    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Iliushechkina moved to France earlier this year. The date she started living there is the starting point for the one-year minimum period for sitting out competitions.
    Rule 109 2c, which you quote and add emphasis, contradicts this, since the residency provision is Rule 109 2 b 1, which does not apply to an "other" (non-citizen) partner. The waiting period has nothing to do with residency since she is a non-citizen pairs skater, but all to do with her last competition at NHK in November 2011*, since Kocon holds French citizenship.

    *I received a PM with the correction.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-20-2012 at 06:58 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    France could apply for an exception under Rule 109 Paragraph 5 if Russia won't release her for two seasons (2.5 years from her last competition. Whether it would be worth it to the French Fed to take on the Russian Fed that way is questionable, but it might be tempting since France has two reliably strong disciplines, Dance and Men, and Iliushechkina/Kocon could mean not taking an automatic last in Pairs.
    I think that's a very good point. The french fed has refused to release skaters in the past for Russia and the other way round. They've also invested $$$ on James/Cipres (and sped up V. James' citizenship in 2 years). Yes Popova/Massot skated badly at WTT but they can do so much better. J/C and P/M almost got France 3 spots at Euros this year!
    Iliushechkina will need to get her confidence (and jumps) back and taking a bit of time off to gel as a team might be a good thing.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Rule 109 2c, which you quote and add emphasis, contradicts this, since the residency provision is Rule 109 2 b 1, which does not apply to an "other" (non-citizen) partner. The waiting period has nothing to do with residency since she is a non-citizen pairs skater, but all to do with her last competition at NHK in November 2011*, since Kocon holds French citizenship.
    The one rule doesn't contradict the other, it supervenes it.

    If she hadn't skated in international competition this past season, she'd be subject two the 12-calendar-months rule. But she did, so she will to sit out a full season in order to skate for France.

    Regardless, the difference between the two clauses doesn't make much difference to Iliushechkina unless the Russian Federation is actually going to send her to big events in the second half of the 2012-13 season.

    Even if they could team her up with an outstanding partner, I wouldn't blame her for wanting to switch federations. As it is, Kocon's ISU Championship record in Pairs, with an inferior partner, is almost as good as Iliushechkina's.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    The one rule doesn't contradict the other, it supervenes it.
    The rule contradicted your statement that her wait-out period is based on a year's residence. It's not, because she's an "other" skater in a pair or dance team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    If she hadn't skated in international competition this past season, she'd be subject two the 12-calendar-months rule. But she did, so she will to sit out a full season in order to skate for France.
    That's not correct. There is only one rule that applies (2c), and that's "However, if such partner has already represented another Member, egardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;" For her, that's one year from NHK 2011, which means November 2012.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Regardless, the difference between the two clauses doesn't make much difference to Iliushechkina unless the Russian Federation is actually going to send her to big events in the second half of the 2012-13 season.
    There's no wait-out period for switching partners within the same Federation. She could get a host pick with another Russian partner for Rostelecom Cup -- she and Maisuradze never went to Worlds, so she never had a chance to place high enough (1-12) to qualify as a "Split Couple" for the alternates list -- and she could be assigned to any Senior B with a Russian partner. Were she to get a release before then, which Gorshkov said he wasn't willing to do, she could start skating in Senior B's after mid-November, beginning with Warsaw Cup.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #26
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    Yes, I see that now. But it's still not that much of a sacrifice, is it?

    By the way, does anyone have any idea what skater the Russians could partner Iliushechkina up with if she does change her mind?

  7. #27
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    No, that's one of the big mysteries. If they don't break up an existing top pair, and Kavaguti's not retiring yet, they'd have to go with a Junior, and it looks like they've already re-paired a handful of couples, some due to the woman's growth spurt.

    It could be a case of "train with X for the next two years" in Moskvina's rink and then inherit Smirnov after Sochi.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    This was a very clever move on Gorshkov's part. If released publicly from Iliushenchkina's side,, the diaries could have been explosive and there could have been calls to investigate Pavlova's rink and to release Iliushechkina immediately.
    The move certainly is clever, almost too clever and smart. Personally I think the first big task for Russian Fed should have been a proper investigation of what was going on in Pavlova's group. In case it turned out that Iliushenchkina was exaggerating - don't let her go. The decision of RFSF would be really justified in such a case.

    But just in case things going on were bad enough that they might lead even psychologically healthy person to think of suicide, I think insisting on Iliushenchkina competing for Russia is simply inhuman. RFSF might argue a lot on how much money they invested in a skater but considering the young age of most athletes it's also their task & duty to keep an observing eye on their coaches and too ensure that their athletes have physically and psychologically healthy training conditions.

    In any case I feel for Iliushenchkina - I hope she can find a solution to continue skating in a way she likes to do it.

  9. #29
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    Kwanfan1818 - great analysis.

    Gorshkov knew exactly what he was doing.

    I really hope that Iliushechkina can find a way to get a release and skate with Kocon.

  10. #30
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    The thing is, why should Iliushenchkina trust the RSSF? They only agreed to find her another partner after she found herself another one and asked to be released. Whose to say they will actually do what they say or that they will do it for now but later on ignore her situation and any problems she's having?

    I think if they said to her "Come to Moskvina with your new partner and skate for us" that she'd have no complaint but they are promising her some nebulous partner in the future. If I were her, I'd go for the bird in the hand over 2 in the bush (Moskvina as coach being the other bird).
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    It's clearly an attempt to silence her.

    They'd give her some mediocre (for Russian standards) partner and one B-International at best and she'd probably never make the National team again.

    Given how inconsistent both Popova/Massot and James/Cipres seem to be, I can imagine her winning French Nationals if she manages to land her jumps.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's clearly an attempt to silence her.

    They'd give her some mediocre (for Russian standards) partner and one B-International at best and she'd probably never make the National team again.
    Very sad, but I too think so.
    Russian Fed is and I wait for the day when the finally starts!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's clearly an attempt to silence her.

    They'd give her some mediocre (for Russian standards) partner and one B-International at best and she'd probably never make the National team again.
    If the Russian Fed's goal is to win medals (which it quite clearly is), then shorting Iliuscheskina by providing her with a sub-par partner would not further their objectives. She is a very talented ladies pairs skater, so it would behoove them to find her a suitable partner (assuming they have one). And Moskvina is not known for just passing the time idly, so I can't imagine that their goal in sending Lubov to Moskvina is to effectively put her out to pasture.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  14. #34
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    Sometimes blocking others from being competitive is a strategy.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    I totally get blocking her from going to France, but what would Russia have to gain by trying to hold Iliuscheskina back within Russia (which seemed to be Ziggy's cynical theory)? I don't think the Russian Fed particularly cares which pairs team medals, as long as there are Russians on the podium.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

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    They look really bad if they don't offer her another partner, but refuse to release her. A partner who is less experience could gain from her experience, and if it worked out better than expected, fine.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I find this disturbing on so many levels, but most of all that Piseev would reveal that Iliushechkina had suicidal thoughts.



    And yet he had no compunction about Tatiana Volozhar.

    (And, yes, I know that the Ukrainian Federation was willing to release her, but I do recall rumors that one of the reasons was that its Russian counterpart paid it off to secure the release.)

    :
    Volosozhar situation was very different. All concerned parties were willing to send her to Russia, with the goal to win a championship. It was clear that Ukraine did not have a good enough partner for her, and they were willing to give her the opportunity in Russia.

    That is very different from a skater (Lubov) leaving due to some issues with either herself and/or with the coach/rink. I am not even sure that Iliushechkina's choice of a new partner that she found on the internet is a good long term solution for her as a pairs skater. She can do what she wants with her life- it may even work out for her, on and/or off the ice- but as far as the RSF goes, they have made the effort to help her. They did invest a lot in her, so it is understandable that they won't just release her. They do have to take care of their skating program.

    It's not clear from what's been published that Lubov seeked help from her fed while she was feeling abused or whatever. She wrote a lot in her diaries but how much effort was made to correct the situation? To me, it just looks like an unfortunate situation that could have been avoided, or addressed much earlier. Hopefully everything will turn out fine for all parties, but it is unreasonable to expect that the Russian fed would just let her go to compete in Sochi for another country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    It's not clear from what's been published that Lubov seeked help from her fed while she was feeling abused or whatever. She wrote a lot in her diaries but how much effort was made to correct the situation? To me, it just looks like an unfortunate situation that could have been avoided, or addressed much earlier. Hopefully everything will turn out fine for all parties, but it is unreasonable to expect that the Russian fed would just let her go to compete in Sochi for another country.
    *Ahem*

    Apparently, she was considering suicide. Most suicidal/clinically depressed young people -- especially if they aren't full-time students, with access to free counseling-- don't go to institutional authorities (skating federation, employer, whatever) and say, "I'm suicidal. Please help me." If you believe otherwise, you should do some reading about the subject.

    While it is understandable that the Russian Federation doesn't want to lose any return on its investment, publicizing a skater's mental health problems (which I assume is what Piseev is doing, since the alternative explanation, i.e., that he is lying, is too disgusting to consider) is inexcusable. The decision not to release her is the least of it.

  19. #39
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    I also think it's disingenuous to refer to her new partner as "someone she found on the internet." It's not like he's some random guy no one has ever heard of. So they connected via email instead of a phone call. That's not so unusual in this day and age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    I totally get blocking her from going to France, but what would Russia have to gain by trying to hold Iliuscheskina back within Russia (which seemed to be Ziggy's cynical theory)?
    (For once) I don't find Ziggy's theory cynical but very logical. It's much more a matter of not losing something than gaining something else. To me, Pissev saying "we don't want another Anissina" means "we don't want another Russian skater blossoming in a foreign country and becoming a medal contender". He doesn't want to provide his opponents with eventual contenders as he already did once. I've seen countries saying a huge NO to the release of their skaters even when they had never hit the roof result-wise, but "just in case". Keeping them "home" is also a way to silence them when they've had some trouble said fed is not proud of.
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