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  1. #61
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    Parenting is hard enough, so why the need to judge mothers on what they do? Why not support them in whatever they are doing so long as they aren't hurting the child?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    It's not a problem with infants when you feed every 2 hours or so but with a 3-4 year old who is not likely to feed that often (although who knows?), chances are good there isn't a lot in that boob.
    Probably not, but as someone above pointed out, nursing a 3-4-year-old is probably more about early morning/bedtime comfort, so a lot isn't needed. Also, with nursing being supply and demand, a lot probably isn't stored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    Parenting is hard enough, so why the need to judge mothers on what they do? Why not support them in whatever they are doing so long as they aren't hurting the child?
    I think the question becomes, in this case (the magazine cover), "is the child being hurt?" Not physically, obviously, but psychologically? Is making a three year old pose like that with his mother in front of cameras and then having it splashed all over the world good for the child? Or is it a form of mental abuse? I've seen several articles out there asking those questions, and I think they are valid questions to ask.

    Let me give another scenario. Attachment parenting (I read Prancer's link from a few pages ago) advocates joint baths. If this picture was of a father and a three year old girl bathing together, how would people react to that?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post
    I think the question becomes, in this case (the magazine cover), "is the child being hurt?" Not physically, obviously, but psychologically? Is making a three year old pose like that with his mother in front of cameras and then having it splashed all over the world good for the child? Or is it a form of mental abuse? I've seen several articles out there asking those questions, and I think they are valid questions to ask.

    Let me give another scenario. Attachment parenting (I read Prancer's link from a few pages ago) advocates joint baths. If this picture was of a father and a three year old girl bathing together, how would people react to that?
    Are you judging the picture or the act? From your original post, I assumed you were judging the act and that is what I as referring to in my post. I think the photo is exploitative and is only on the cover for shock value. I think the act is fine if that is what the child and the mother want. Again I ask, excluding the photo, why the need to judge mothers on what they do? Why not support them? I hate this whole "you must do this mentality." Why scare new mothers like that?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I think that we are, in part, what our parents make us. It's an important but not the only contributing factor.
    Yes. Did I say parents were irrelevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But I'm not sure that's connected to some of the parenting wars that spring up when kids are younger than pre-school age. At least not directly.
    I think for many people, the things you do with a child psychologically in the early developmental stages are important and set the stage for everything later in life. That's what attachment parenting is all about, really, and any other guide that talks about things like discipline, behavior management, and parenting appropriately for a child's developmental stage.

    But yes, people do definitely lighten up when their kids start school--although that is about the time when you begin to realize not just that you aren't likely to do permanent harm to your child with every decision, but also that you don't have total control over your child's personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    There was a time when the collective wisdom of mothers sufficed. Then along came the typically male psychologists/scientists who claimed to have all the right answers.
    Hmm, well, prior to the invention of the printing press, most people had no choice but to rely on collective wisdom, although parenting advice was available to those who were literate and could afford books. The printing press, however, made it possible for parenting guides to be available to the masses and, indeed, parenting guides were one of the first things that were published. They sold very well, too, which indicates to me that parents felt the need of guidance even then. Until the Victorian Age, they were directed at fathers, not mothers, not because mothers were wise enough to get along on their own, but because mothers weren't considered very important until then, and the focus was on spiritual development, which was seen as the responsibility of men. Then the focus shifted to mothers and it became fathers who weren't considered very important, largely because of the focus on the importance of the early developmental years, which brings us back to psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Who is Dr. Sears?
    Dr. Sears and his wife are the ones who started and still lead Attachment Parenting; they have written many parenting guides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    Parenting is hard enough, so why the need to judge mothers on what they do? Why not support them in whatever they are doing so long as they aren't hurting the child?
    How do you define "hurting"? Because, as is clear in some of the posts in this thread, some people DO think that this kind of thing "hurts" the child, at least in the sense of not being good for the child.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Yes. Did I say parents were irrelevant?
    Did I state or even imply that you said that? Why the defensive tone? Thank you for the Dr. Sears info.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    Probably not, but as someone above pointed out, nursing a 3-4-year-old is probably more about early morning/bedtime comfort, so a lot isn't needed. Also, with nursing being supply and demand, a lot probably isn't stored.
    That's what I meant, although I didn't state it clearly: that nursing is not a significant source of nutrition at this point so I asked what the purpose of this was and the reply I see throughout the thread is comfort.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-11-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post

    Let me give another scenario. Attachment parenting (I read Prancer's link from a few pages ago) advocates joint baths. If this picture was of a father and a three year old girl bathing together, how would people react to that?

    of course, such a cover would also be extremely provocative, just like this is styled to be. I think you could show both scenrios in a much less provocative way, but that doesn't sell magazines, now does it?

    (that being said, I do think attachment parenting taking to the extreme is very, very strange - but not nessesarily damaging. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Who cares whether you do everything right when thye are 0-5? It will all seem wrong anyway when they are 14
    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post
    I think the question becomes, in this case (the magazine cover), "is the child being hurt?" Not physically, obviously, but psychologically?
    Or in the future - remember that peers will want to tease/humiliate the child for being attached to his mommy's breast. If she wants to breastfeed until he is 22 that's her business. To have a picture out there for the world present and in the future to see probably disregards the effect of peer pressure.

    Co-Sleeping is associated with SIDS. Yes there is a higher percentage associated with drugs or alcohol, but not all. There are ways to do co-sleeping safely. My niece had a similar bed for her kids. My kids slept in our room in a bassinet for the first 6 weeks.

    Breast feeding until the child is older (like age of 3 or 4) has occurred throughout the ages. What I find disturbing about this case is not so much the continued breastfeeding - like I said her business - but the exploitation and sensationalism of the photograph. I think the boy will be mercifully harassed by his peers as he gets older.

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    I've never breast fed a 4 year old, so I don't really know, but I'd guess the pose shown on the cover isn't the usual feeding position. Right? Wrong?

    Time has featured breast feeding on the cover before. But not in a staged and posed shot:

    http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16...990412,00.html
    Creating drama!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    yes, people do definitely lighten up when their kids start school--although that is about the time when you begin to realize not just that you aren't likely to do permanent harm to your child with every decision, but also that you don't have total control over your child's personality.
    Bummer, innit?


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    It's similar to a lot of Jewish families. The kids are expected to excel, period. Nothing less than an A is ever considered acceptable. Otherwise it's , , and so on. The original tiger mom is Chinese, married to a Jew, a double wammy. That joke "Mom, I have Hepatitis B"--"Why not Hepatitis A???!!!" really resonates.
    Not just that. My aunt and uncle are much more traditional Asian parents and basically strong-armed my cousin into going to medical school. It was either that or go into finance to make scads of money (which is what his brother does). Only two choices. God help them if one of their kids wanted to be an artist, but they got lucky and both kids are really good at engineering and don't mind doing it.

    My mom still has relatives who get all when their kid gets into law school. My mom's hilarious, she goes, "Why, don't you see how the job market is?? " My mom is great.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Anita, ITA about successful kids' parents. When I heard about Vanessa Lam's achievement, my first thought was "how did the parents do it???", although I realize that it's not entirely up to the parent. Few kids can be pushed to Vanessa's level on achievement. Most of it comes from within but the parents help IMO.
    Yup. My parents were lazy Asian parents by the time we were in middle school and my sister is still a type A crazy overachiever. (In high school, they joked that they only signed the checks for her activities. And my father was glad when she finally quit mock trial because she physically could not be in two places at once. Let me reiterate: an Asian parent was GLAD when their child QUIT something. )

    And I'm a lazy bint who only exerts effort when the payoff seems worth it. Got into college, passed with a degree, have a job, so...good job my child, have a nice life.

    I don't agree with pushing a child to a high level of achievement if the ambition isn't already there. You'll only end up with a child who hates your guts, even if they're really accomplished and/or rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Breast feeding until the child is older (like age of 3 or 4) has occurred throughout the ages. What I find disturbing about this case is not so much the continued breastfeeding - like I said her business - but the exploitation and sensationalism of the photograph. I think the boy will be mercifully harassed by his peers as he gets older.
    The staging of the photograph is definitely sensationalist, and purposeful. I have half a mind to bring this into my photography class to talk about it, because we're doing a portrait project now.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Not just that. My aunt and uncle are much more traditional Asian parents and basically strong-armed my cousin into going to medical school. It was either that or go into finance to make scads of money (which is what his brother does). Only two choices. God help them if one of their kids wanted to be an artist, but they got lucky and both kids are really good at engineering and don't mind doing it.
    It can be like that in Jewish families. Law is no longer part of the equation unless it's top tier.

    The joke in the Jewish culture about this used to be: You know how complicated it is to figure out when a fetus is considered viable? Well, in the Jewish tradition the fetus is not viable until it graduates from medical school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post

    Yup. My parents were lazy Asian parents by the time we were in middle school and my sister is still a type A crazy overachiever. (In high school, they joked that they only signed the checks for her activities. And my father was glad when she finally quit mock trial because she physically could not be in two places at once. Let me reiterate: an Asian parent was GLAD when their child QUIT something. )

    And I'm a lazy bint who only exerts effort when the payoff seems worth it. Got into college, passed with a degree, have a job, so...good job my child, have a nice life.
    I dunno, neither you nor your parents sound lazy to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    I don't agree with pushing a child to a high level of achievement if the ambition isn't already there. You'll only end up with a child who hates your guts, even if they're really accomplished and/or rich.
    ITA.
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  13. #73

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    Whatever is on the cover of a major magazine is intended to "attract attention" and sell copies.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I dunno, neither you nor your parents sound lazy to me.
    The more my mom hears about stories from other Asian mothers, the more she's convinced that she was incredibly lazy.

    Last week was the mother who drummed into her sons' heads that they needed to excel academically because the world discriminated again Asian men. So much so that she would visit her children's high schools before the school year to work out which classes and teachers they were going to take. She's even working out which medical schools her sons are going to go to. They're still only in high school, but eh, could be worse. I pointed out she could be planning for medical schools when her kids were in elementary school, or registering for their classes when they were in college.

    Have we determined whether attachment parenting is in any way related to helicopter parenting?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    The more my mom hears about stories from other Asian mothers, the more she's convinced that she was incredibly lazy.

    Last week was the mother who drummed into her sons' heads that they needed to excel academically because the world discriminated again Asian men. So much so that she would visit her children's high schools before the school year to work out which classes and teachers they were going to take. She's even working out which medical schools her sons are going to go to. They're still only in high school, but eh, could be worse. I pointed out she could be planning for medical schools when her kids were in elementary school, or registering for their classes when they were in college.
    Hmm, someone should tell her that these things change a lot in a span of 8 years or even from year to year.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    The picture is....disturbing.

  17. #77
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    SFGate had a interesting editorial on this: http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2012/0...er-go-too-far/
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Mom speaks out about cover.
    Defends Time
    "I understand some of the breastfeeding advocates are actually upset about this," Grumet said as Aram draped himself over her lap and whined. They feel that the cover didn't show the nurturing side of attachment parenting, she explained as she stroked her son's back, but "This isn't how we breastfeed at home. It's more of a cradling, nurturing situation.
    Here's a quote that hits at what others have said about the photograph:

    Many Yahoo! readers had the same issue with the picture. "This picture would have been better received if the child was seated on mom's lap and they were looking at each other," Cherrie from Raleigh, North Carolina, commented. "Nothing about this picture makes me think of nurture or affection. Mom is practically glaring at the camera.

  19. #79
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    I just realized that I did sort of an attachment parenting thing without knowing. I responded every time my son woke up during the night until he was 18 months old. He woke up to eat twice a night. Pediatricians told me that he doesn't need to be eating at night past the age of 4 months or so but I thought I was being a bad mother letting my baby go hungry.

    So for quite some time I didn't have uninterrupted sleep and went to school full time. When he was weaned, my husband was able to share some of the nights so it was the two of us who were zombies. At around 18 months he still showed no signs of giving up the night feedings--we were at our wits end. So we let him cry for two nights. We went in to show him we are there but didn't pick him up. Just two nights of protest and then he was sleeping through the night. Why didn't I do this sooner??
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  20. #80
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    I think the cover is an udder failure....
    Happiness is being married to your best friend!

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