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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skate Talker View Post
    It sounds to me like they can grab away at the blade all they want but only the first time they attempt it will be considered for the DV rule.
    True, but hopefully it won't be worth it for them.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by HisWeirness View Post
    2. In death spirals, "any part of the lady's body touching the ice, -1 to -2" is a new unrestricted deduction.
    I hope that hair does not count as "part of the lady's body" for purposes of this rule.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    True, but hopefully it won't be worth it for them.
    That's worked in Ladies and Ice Dance when the incentives for blade to head and 24x7 Biellmanns were taken away.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    So am I correct in saying that in pairs all of the lifts can no longer end in blade grabbing?
    Well, no: technically, it's possible to get credit for blade-grabbing in all three lifts in a Senior Pair FS; it can be credited once per "type of lady's position" and there are three possible "lady's positions." Last season, the complaints about blade grabbing seemed to be centered on the overhead/lasso/press/"upright" position, in which the traditional position emphasizes the extension of the lady's free leg. Next season, skaters will be able to get credit for that DV once, but they could still get credit for blade grabbing in a star position and credit for blade grabbing in a platter position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I remember skaters showing all the different lifts to a friend who was preparing for technical specialist exams.

    They showed all of the lifts but then the coach had to step in to show the 5RLi because that was the one they weren't able to perform even off-ice.

    So according to them at least, it was by far the hardest.
    After I posted yesterday, I remembered the original rationale for the differential in BV: it was originally considered that 5ALi and 5RLi had built-in difficult entries and simply could not be executed with additional difficult variations of the entry; therefore, the bonus for a single bullet of difficult entry was included in the base value of 5ALi/5RLi in order to avoid punishing teams who did those lifts. The spread-eagle entry into 5ALi was actually not-kosher-with-the-existing-rules in 2004*, and I recall an entire season of "is it or isn't it" debate back-and-forth between the ISU technical committee and the people who were actually on tech panels. IIRC, following a season with an unofficial clarification to allow the spread-eagle takeoff without calling the resulting lift as an illegal element, the rules were changed at the end of the season to allow the spread-eagle takeoff to remain within the spirit of the rules. I would not be surprised if the rationale for raising the base value of 5RLi followed similar logic, as it is almost impossible to do a difficult entry into a 5RLi.

    *Short version: men are allowed to rotate a maximum of three times in a legal lift: in a traditional 5ALi, both of the man's feet are facing forward and he gets three revolutions from there. If he is in a spread eagle position at the takeoff, he has one foot going forward and one foot going backward. In a technical application of the rules, when his backward foot releases and steps forward, that's actually his first 1/2 revolution. The clarification established that if a man has one foot going forward and one foot going backward, you count his rotations from the front foot.

    One additional short note: One of the flaws in IJS (IMHO) is that it attempts to quantify absolute differences in difficulty between various elements. In reality, however, various elements are differently difficult for different skaters. When you factor in the relative difficulty of the various features, it really muddies the idea of absolute difficulty. For example, a nice base-GOE LSp1 is more difficult than a base-GOE CSp1, but the opposite is true at L4. The SoV has become more nuanced over the years to reflect some of these, but it does not - and can not and will never - reflect the relative difficulty of various elements for particular teams. The first team that I saw perform a 5RLi was Hinzmann/Parchem; it was easier for them than a 5ALi because of Parchem's shoulder injuries. (FWIW, I once asked Parchem about the absolute difficulty of 5ALi/5RLi and he thought 5RLi was significantly easier, even without the effects of his injury.)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5Ali3 View Post

    One additional short note: One of the flaws in IJS (IMHO) is that it attempts to quantify absolute differences in difficulty between various elements. In reality, however, various elements are differently difficult for different skaters.
    I don't think it is entirely true that IJS "attempts to quantify absolute differences in difficulty between various elements". If it were true, then there would be more thought-out differences in base between, for example, 3T and 3S, 3Lo, and then again, especially given the amount of wrong edges called by the judges, 3F, and 3Lz. A 3A/3T would have more additional base than 3T/3T, not just the difference between a 3A and a 3T. A 2[x]/3[y] would have a higher base than a 3[y]/2[x]. Etc.

    The ISU seems to have attempted to come up with a formula that balances TES and PCS for Men and attempts to balance it for Ladies, and they've capped and tweaked the base values accordingly. The strength is enforcing a uniform value for all competitors, not internal algorithms by judges.

    Any judging system that assigns difficulty -- diving, snowboarding, gymnastics -- has to create the same values for all competitors. Within every system that does this are individuals for whom what is considered difficult is easy and vice versa.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5Ali3 View Post
    Well, no: technically, it's possible to get credit for blade-grabbing in all three lifts in a Senior Pair FS; it can be credited once per "type of lady's position" and there are three possible "lady's positions." Last season, the complaints about blade grabbing seemed to be centered on the overhead/lasso/press/"upright" position, in which the traditional position emphasizes the extension of the lady's free leg. Next season, skaters will be able to get credit for that DV once, but they could still get credit for blade grabbing in a star position and credit for blade grabbing in a platter position.

  7. #27
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    I don't like that the 8 rev feature for spins can only count once per program now. It was a good motivational feature for skaters to work on speed and control of spin positions.

    I guess with the DV feature capable of counting multiple times, we are back to a million DVs for each spin. At least there will be new DVs.

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