US Pairs 2012-13 news & updates

[figureit]

From their pre-Worlds media teleconference today as tweeted by USFS:

The comments Simon made about having two clean skates does that mean Throw triple sal instead of quad? and throw double axle instead of triple? They said if they made World's they would go for it...bummer if they don't...not sure they are in a position to guarantee landings because they are easy throws...also what a point loss...man ..anything on the promise they made to up the anti and going for it?? Was just excited for that...missed it at Nats too....

[figureit]

You meant Z/B right? I definitely didn't mean to put words in your mouth... Earlier in the thread you said that many people felt Z/B would have been 2nd at Nationals if they had had the min. score. And then again on this page you wondered if Z/B would have finished higher if they had had the min. score. I interpreted that as you thinking Z/B were robbed, and I used that word because to me it was the easiest way to summarize your overall viewpoint-- that the judges may have manipulated the results based on who had the min. score. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying


I actually had forgotten about S/K's fall in the SP. I was focused mostly on the LP since I was replying to the post about standing ovations. I don't remember the SP being disastrous, but maybe it was, can't remember. Z/B were ahead after the SP, and would have been ahead by more had S/K not outscored them on 5 of the 7 elements in that program and had higher levels on a couple elements... So at least it wasn't some big unwarranted PCS boost from the judges to keep it closer.

They were both good but man that S/K triple twist holds a ton of points it is the best in the country.....step out on flip oh ya and triple sal issues but other elements good...and Z/B were excellent but lacking on some elements too..some things were lack luster even though completed clean...just because someone is clean doesn't mean they should win. Or Alex J would have won mens! He was amazing and I thought the best of the men... A lot more goes into it then we may think...points for this and that...etc...there is something cool about S/K their look, line, etc.and they do well internationally so far I think due to their look as well as certain elements like the twist is comparable to other countries.and that HUGE throws..I think S/K looking at scores got top score in lifts, twist, spins ...they are solid but lacking some pointing toes on lifts...and choreography also variation but that takes time..can't wait to see what happens next year I hope they do well at World's and continue to develop...

..I like Z/B's spunk and their fire...but they strike me as a totally different pair than S/K...lifts solid and good but he is short and so it looks different...like the action they have the spark and attack...footwork, spins, are all good...twist ehh..but that may be due to size? also throws are good...worried about choreography and him wearing something other than a short sleeve shirt to show muscles...maybe work on line and connection...more of a classic line???

so all have something to offer.....like comparing apples to oranges I think..it will be interesting to see S/K internationally with a new long program...and next year will be crazy as we finally have a deeper field in pairs!
!!! NOTE: apparently S/K won the performance award from PSA voted on at Nationals...https://twitter.com/ProfSk8rsAssoc

Hope C/S do their throw quad! and triple axle and not just doing the easy throws to be clean only... not sure that philosophy will work next year..wishing them luck at World's Will be exciting to watch the Internationals this year...!!

[olympic]

IMO, Z/B had a better skate at Nationals than S/K and should have been second overall. Regardless, I think both teams have similar scoring/placement potential at Worlds if they skate relatively well. My only concern would be her health. I am actually more concerned about C/S as their only really great performance in the last two comps was the SP at Nationals despite their placements. A top ten finish for either team is going to take two really great programs at Worlds. There is too much depth in the international field for any errors.
Kayne/O'shea's performance at their Senior B certainly gives them momentum for next season. I really like this team and think they will be a force to be reckoned with in a few years if they stay together. Also, Leng/Leduc perform some lovely elements (especially their beautiful sbs triple toes) and have great potential. Not to mention we have the current World Junior Champions and the other Juniors moving up to Senior. Unfortunately, I fear D/S need to gain some consistency or they are going to be buried by new talent.
I will withhold my judgement on Davis/Brubaker until I see what they put out this year. They are certainly an interesting pairing and will no doubt be in the medal hunt. I wonder if Y/R will skate together this season. I think that second Olympic spot (assuming we keep two spots which, barring disaster, is likely) is up for grabs between about four teams. Should be interesting....

S/K v. Z/B - I agree with the final standings at Nationals: S/K's elements are 'bigger' and more explosive than Z/B's elements, yet they maintain a calmness in their skating. But, I think that Z/B have a certain panache and are better at expression than S/K, and overall they probably generate more excitement when they skate. I do think some elements that Z/B are better on are the spins, choreographed sequence, and footwork. But again, S/K have it over them on the big stuff - 3twist , both throw jumps, SBS 3sals (although Z/B edge them on 1 jumping pass by doing a 2x-2x seq. vs. 2x-2t seq.), and all the lifts.

C/S - I really would like to see them step up their game. They've come a long way in consistency. But, it would be nice to see them try either a throw 3x or throw 4sal at Worlds, and upgrade their jumping passes to SBS 3toes and SBS 3sals. Pairs talent is sooo deep right now at the international level and I don't want to see them get buried. But, they and their coaches know what they are capable of, so we will see.

K/O - This pair is a nice revelation. Going to Challenge Cup in Holland was a great payoff because it put them on the map internationally. They have the big moves and if they stay together and train hard, they will be podium factors in years to come on the national level. They just need time to let everything both technically and artistically gel. Their big challenge will be a smooth 3twist (right now, it's got the sack of potatoes quality)

L/L - More than anyone else, this pair really catches my eye! They've got a 'look' on the ice that can't be manufactured (exact opposite of the pageant-like look we see from D/C). I think she just needs more time to fit into her role as a pairs lady figure skater. SBS jumps to die for. He looks like the diva in the pair! I do think he needs to develop more strength in the lifts, and the 3twist is a big problem right now.

D/F - She is 17 I believe and I hope she doesn't grow much anymore because I think he is only 5-10. I like that she has her sister's cat-like landing qualities on the jumps: The way she handles the landing on the tilted throw 3sal makes her a rock star! Again, just another pair with some big tricks that needs to stick together and grow.

D/S - IDK. I don't think she'll ever be consistent on even a 2x and with the boomlet of talent moving in to US pairs, they are really going to risk getting buried. But, maybe they need a wake-up call to shake-up how they are approaching training. Something isn't working ...

D/B - Great potential, but we will see. If things go according to plan, they can definitely become a top team. It will depend on how Lindsay and Rockne interact on lifts, throws and especially the 3twist because I don't know why, but I get the impression that sometimes her male partners do a lot of the work on the interactive elements, but she is older and wiser, has good extension, stroking and her SBS elements are strong.

Y/R - Totally forgot about them. I hope that they are holding it together despite all the setbacks. What has kept them out of competition? Nothing to judge them by except that Caitlin is a rock star who just needs to stay secure on her jump landings going forward, and Josh always needed to work on being a little less wooden. They've got a decent height differential I think 5-3 v. 6-0. We'll see......

It will also be interesting to watch a consistent (albeit somewhat pageant-like) D/C hold off the best of the aforementioned. If the best of the aforementioned really bring it next year, D/C may find it tough to claim one of the 2 likely spots the US will have for Sochi. I wonder what D/C's plans are post-Sochi because John was wanting to retire back in 2011 ....

[Sylvia]

Scimeca and Knierim talk about their personal relationship, her foot injury, and their goals for Worlds in the second section of the "Inside Edge" blog published today: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
Excerpt:

Scimeca also spoke with confidence about the foot injury that forced the team to withdraw from the Four Continents Championships. She said that there were three different issues: cuboid syndrome, a bone bruise on the talus and tendinitis on the side of the foot. She says all three problems are under control and that the team is training well and looking forward to worlds.

"My foot is doing wonderfully," she said. "I'm going to two different types of therapy every day, and I get my foot taped at the Olympic Training Center. I'm feeling great on the ice, very strong, and we're able to train full force."

"I'm super-excited about worlds," Knierim said. "We're going in with no expectations, just wanting to put out a good performance. Getting a personal best is our goal."

[olympic]

Scimeca and Knierim talk about their personal relationship, her foot injury, and their goals for Worlds in the second section of the "Inside Edge" blog published today: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
Excerpt:

[BittyBug]

The audience never lies...2 standing ovations were given: Z/B and D/L.

By that reasoning Wesley Campbell should be on the World team.

[jdonavan]

By that reasoning Wesley Campbell should be on the World team.

OK OK I get it. Guess well see what happens at Worlds.

[figureit]

OK OK I get it. Guess well see what happens at Worlds.

I think we already saw what happened at Nationals.

World's the goal especially with S/K is just what the article said...no expectation just go and skate, perform, and enjoy...they have been together less than a year...earned their place and are going to just skate...
C/S however have more pressure...and I sure hope they up the anti with technical merit...they need to..if I see a USA team at world's doing just a throw triple sal and a throw d/axel I will think I am in 1986. SO let's go USA!!!
World's will be great to watch but this year coming up will be the more interesting to see I think..deep field.

[jdonavan]

[QUOTE=figureit;3857162]I think we already saw what happened at Nationals.

World's the goal especially with S/K is just what the article said...no expectation just go and skate, perform, and enjoy...they have been together less than a year...earned their place and are going to just skate...
C/S however have more pressure...and I sure hope they up the anti with technical merit...they need to..if I see a USA team at world's doing just a throw triple sal and a throw d/axel I will think I am in 1986. SO let's go USA!!!
World's will be great to watch but this year coming up will be the more interesting to see I think..deep field.[/QUO

I said I get it...will you let it rest

ANY world team member should be expected to bring their best and that includes a logical plan. C/S going out and performing a quad throw and/ or possible 3 Axel may on the surface seem wise, but perhaps a clean program would benefit them more in the final standings.

I appreciate the " just gonna enjoy the experience" attitude of S/K, but the do have responsibility just as much as C/S.

Again my opinion.

[figureit]

[QUOTE=jdonavan;3857199][QUOTE=figureit;3857162]I think we already saw what happened at Nationals.

World's the goal especially with S/K is just what the article said...no expectation just go and skate, perform, and enjoy...they have been together less than a year...earned their place and are going to just skate...
C/S however have more pressure...and I sure hope they up the anti with technical merit...they need to..if I see a USA team at world's doing just a throw triple sal and a throw d/axel I will think I am in 1986. SO let's go USA!!!
World's will be great to watch but this year coming up will be the more interesting to see I think..deep field.[/QUO

"I said I get it...will you let it rest" from jdonavan

It is a forum so if that was the case then no one would be discussing anything. I am grateful that others comment on things regardless of whether the person that wrote the comment answers it directly or not. It is interesting and I often learn things. It is less personal and just more commenting on information. Sorry if you seem to be taking this so personally. I felt my above comments were based more on thoughts about World's not trying to set you in your place ? and certainly not making sure you "got" anything...so I am a little confused on your statement "I said I get it...will you let it rest".

ALso your opinion like everyone's are read and commented on so you do not need to state it is "your opinion" we all have them and that is why again this is a forum for all of us to post, or ask ?'s etc. So I can appreciate that.

I was not saying S/K have no responsibility?? it seems to me they take that very serious and according to their article have a very definite plan. Also since they won the award for best pair performance at Nationals from PSA I am guessing they want to improve on that at World's I think they said they are focused on a personal best...sounds like a good plan and probably the same as any World Competitor is going to do. I was talking about pressure felt...S/K are definitely under dogs being less than a year together and not having competed internationally yet for 2013 it sets them up for the coming year...with C/S they are going in as National Champs having made promises about what they are putting in their programs at World's. AS many articles stated if we make World's we will put in the quad throw and triple axel. They said those things but it is their prerogative to change their mind. I just think they can be just as clean with a throw triple loop or another higher throw than sal and side by side triples and combos...etc...but you raise a good question about a focus on clean program or aggressive program...? Maximize use all your ability don't play it so safe that you loose out on potential growth for C/S the pair field is so deep they need to push it a little I would initially think. I believe in their ability to do this! Was all I was saying...but not sure now...but hey like you said it is just an opinion and it is not against you or directed at you this is my thoughts in general about what is being discussed.

With World's so close does anyone have any thoughts about what we may see technically from the teams competing?

Or what about the comments that if C/S play it safer then they can get a higher placement and that is more important than pushing the envelope technically? Maybe because they had an issue in the FS at Nationals they are not going to push it??

Also if some of the teams like the Canadians are doing side by side triple lutz is that something that pairs will eventually have to have in their programs? Just wondering about future pair elements that will be expected. I think the days of just having the throw sal and loop are over.

thoughts.?

[DORISPULASKI]

Re "The days of the salchow & loop are over," maybe, maybe not. These things change and shift depending on the table of base values. At one point, the throw flip was the same value as the throw loop. Now they are different, and have been for some time. However, it seems that teams learn the throw flip/lutz if anything, easier than the throw loop, which is why some teams don't do the throw loop, even though the throw salchow has a slightly lower base value. It's entirely possible they will go back to the same value some day. Not to mention that the throw 3A is grossly undervalued, and that may change some day.

In the case of the teams doing SBS flips or lutzes, considering many guys lip and many girls flutz (and a few the reverse), I don't think these are ever going to be universally done, provided that the pairs tech panels do their jobs on edge calls. An edge call wipes out the advantage of the higher base value jump. Certainly, I don't see a whole raft of teams that you could put together who would do the 3F in one jump pass and the 3Lz in the other.

Not to mention that a girl who can do both a flip and lutz (one in combination) clearnly is likely to be continuing on in singles.

Yamaguchi & Galino in the early 1990's were doing side by side triple flips-it has never caught on generally in pairs.

[figureit]

Re "The days of the salchow & loop are over," maybe, maybe not. These things change and shift depending on the table of base values. At one point, the throw flip was the same value as the throw loop. Now they are different, and have been for some time. However, it seems that teams learn the throw flip/lutz if anything, easier than the throw loop, which is why some teams don't do the throw loop, even though the throw salchow has a slightly lower base value. It's entirely possible they will go back to the same value some day. Not to mention that the throw 3A is grossly undervalued, and that may change some day.

In the case of the teams doing SBS flips or lutzes, considering many guys lip and many girls flutz (and a few the reverse), I don't think these are ever going to be universally done, provided that the pairs tech panels do their jobs on edge calls. An edge call wipes out the advantage of the higher base value jump. Certainly, I don't see a whole raft of teams that you could put together who would do the 3F in one jump pass and the 3Lz in the other.

Not to mention that a girl who can do both a flip and lutz (one in combination) clearnly is likely to be continuing on in singles.

Yamaguchi & Galino in the early 1990's were doing side by side triple flips-it has never caught on generally in pairs.

Also wanted to note G&G also did a quad twist but the judges never caught it and I think even Scott Hamilton called it a triple later to find out it was a quad. It held no extra value and was very hard on the girls body so they stopped doing it.
Does any team do a quad and has any American ever done one? Would it hold a higher value than the triple?
You are also right about things changing! I would hate to be a coach in pairs cause lifts, death spirals, levels etc constantly changing even in the same season...

[Skittl1321]

Sui/Han have done quad twist in competition. It's execution was widely criticised on these boards- she basically fell onto him. But the judges didn't seem to care.

Did Carman/Knierim ever do theirs in competition? I do know they interviewed saying they knew they wouldn't be able to do it once she grew because it relied so much on him being able to chunk her tiny body into the air.

[Sylvia]

The quad twist (Lutz, flip or toe loop takeoff) has a base value of 6.6 (B) to 8.6 (level 4) - it's published in the current ISU Scale of Values document. The triple twist is worth 4.6 (B) to 6.2 (L4).

ETA that Sui/Han's 4LzTw1 at 2012 Worlds had a base value of 7.1 points and they received -1 GOE. They rather controversially had received +1.86 GOE for the same element at 2012 Four Continents, which was debated here last year, as Skittl1231 mentioned.

Did Carman/Knierim ever do theirs [4twist] in competition?

No, I only saw a practice clip of their 4twist years ago. It's the only 4twist I've ever seen attempted on video by a recent U.S. pair that I know of. It's been mentioned here before, but Brynn Carman, now 18, has since switched to ice dance and is training in Canton, Michigan and looking for a partner.

ETA #2 - link to new article titled "Castelli, Shnapir's non-split decision proved wise" with quotes from them and their coach, Bobby Martin: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

"There were at least nine times, and maybe more, when one or the other was standing on a cliff, ready to jump," Martin said. "Really, Marissa and Simon's story is about perseverance, of 'Hey, I can stick this out and make things work.'"
...
When asked about his expectations for the team at the world championships, Martin said, "I want to see a good, solid competition from the moment they step on that plane to the moment they come back to Boston. I also want them to enjoy themselves. They've earned this. They deserve this."

BTW, we're nearing 1000 posts in this thread so it will be locked soon. Discussion of Castelli/Shnapir and Scimeca/Knierim at Worlds can continue in the 2013 Worlds forum in Kiss and Cry, and a U.S. Pairs news/updates 2013 thread eventually can be started for the upcoming season.

[stjeaskategym]

Does any team do a quad and has any American ever done one? Would it hold a higher value than the triple?

Peng/Zhang from China do a quad twist, and they do it very well. It's their best element. But despite it being a huge point getter, I can't see it ever really catching on like the men and their quads because size wise, it's rarely possible to make it work.

And as for "I think the days of just having the throw sal and loop are over"... It really depends on the team. Some teams really struggle to increase the difficulty in their throws regardless of how many more points they know they can receive for them. T/T were a good example of that, and we are seeing something similar with C/S now. They are more comfortable with a throw 4S than a 3Lo or 3F, which is quite strange. Who knows if we'll ever see the throw 4S in competition (even though it looks pretty good in video).

It definitely seems that more teams are trying to master a 3F/3Lz now before mastering a throw 3Lo (whereas in the past it was reversed), but some teams may end up being more comfortable with just the loop and sal.

[olympic]

New IN article re C/S almost splitting last year:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

Unfortunately, no throw 3x or 4s at Worlds:

New to the international scene, Castelli and Shnapir still have a ways to go toward polishing their skating and making a name for themselves. They are an incredibly strong team, and they feature huge triple twists and big throws -- they have worked on throw triple Axels and throw quads, though they said they don't plan to attempt one in competition at worlds. But there is definite room for improvement with spins and overall artistry.

[Sylvia]

I also edited in quotes by their coach Bobby Martin from the Castelli/Shnapir article in my post (#994) above.

Peng/Zhang from China do a quad twist, and they do it very well. It's their best element.

Thanks for the reminder! I looked up Peng/Zhang's 2013 Four Continents FS protocol and their quad twist was called 4Tw2, 7.6 base value with +2.14 GOE = 9.74 points (the highest scoring element in their program). But they had mistakes in their sbs jumps and finished 5th overall and 6th in the FS, behind both U.S. pairs and all 3 Canadians, although P/Z did have the third highest TES.

[Spiralgraph]

New IN article re C/S almost splitting last year:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

Unfortunately, no throw 3x or 4s at Worlds:

I can understand that in a way, but to have only a throw 2x and a throw triple (loop or salchow?) will be a disadvantage IMO

[stjeaskategym]

I can understand that in a way, but to have only a throw 2x and a throw triple (loop or salchow?) will be a disadvantage IMO

Definitely, but what can you do? You have to do what you can do, especially if you main goal is "a solid competition". And they've been able to score relatively decently with the axel and sal.

[Sylvia]

Castelli/Shnapir's 2ATh has a base value of 4.00 and they added +1.9 GOE at 2013 4CC, while their 3STh in the second half with a BV of 4.95 received +1.7 GOE. Their ISU PB and SB FS score of 117.04 was set at 4CC, even though they lost points on their sbs jumps (3T with negative GOE and 1A+1T instead of 2A+2T).