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  1. #961

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonavan View Post
    Haven also won a Novice National silver medal under Peterson with Daniel Raad winning the freeskate.
    Yes, and Denney/Raad placed 7th in Junior the next year at 2010 Nationals and then 6th in Junior at 2011 Nationals after they had switched to Zimmerman.

    After transitioning from roller to ice in Florida, Haven Denney/Brandon Frazier won the 2006 South Atlantic Regional Juvenile Pairs title in Oct. 2005 and placed 10th at Jr. Nationals in Dec. 2005 when they were 10 and 13, respectively. I didn't find their names in any pair results the following season, and they both moved to Colorado to skate in the 2007-08 season.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  2. #962
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    BTW, regarding scores by US pairs at this point. Don't Z/B and K/O now have higher international total scores than S/K by virtue of their performances at 4CC's and Challenge Cup?

  3. #963

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    BTW, regarding scores by US pairs at this point. Don't Z/B and K/O now have higher international total scores than S/K by virtue of their performances at 4CC's and Challenge Cup?
    Here's how US Pairs that competed in Seniors stand on the Season's Best List. However, I have no clue who K/O are?????

    9 179.21 Caydee DENNEY / John COUGHLIN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012
    11 174.51 Marissa CASTELLI / Simon SHNAPIR USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    14 167.30 Felicia ZHANG / Nathan BARTHOLOMAY USA ISU 4CCs 2013 10.02.2013
    15 163.10 Alexa SCIMECA / Chris KNIERIM USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    21 155.83 Haven DENNEY / Brandon FRAZIER USA World Junior Champ 2013 28.02.2013
    29 143.70 Lindsay DAVIS / Mark LADWIG USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    30 143.15 Tiffany VISE / Don BALDWIN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012

  4. #964

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    K/O = Tarah Kayne and Danny O'Shea, the silver medalists in their international debut at Challenge Cup last month.

    Here are all the pairs' Senior B international scores this season:
    178.90 Caydee Denney/John Coughlin (121.61 FS) Nebelhorn Trophy, 2nd
    174.86 Marissa Castelli/Simon Shnapir (114.42) Ice Challenge (AUT), 1st
    167.82 Tarah Kayne/Daniel O’Shea (113.71) Challenge Cup (NED), 2nd
    156.00 Alexa Scimeca/Chris Knierim (96.99) Cup of Nice (FRA), 1st
    148.56 DeeDee Leng/Timothy LeDuc (96.77) Challenge Cup (NED), 5th
    146.50 Kiri Baga/Taylor Toth (102.75) Challenge Cup (NED), 6th
    145.35 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (102.14) Nebelhorn Trophy, 4th
    143.34 Tiffany Vise/Don Baldwin (102.35) Salt Lake Senior B, 3rd
    143.32 Felicia Zhang/Nathan Bartholomay (95.88) Salt Lake Senior B, 4th
    135.43 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (94.07) Ice Challenge (AUT), 2nd
    121.31 Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig (75.73) Salt Lake Senior B, 5th
    Last edited by Sylvia; 03-04-2013 at 07:26 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  5. #965

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    K/O = Tarah Kayne and Danny O'Shea, the silver medalists in their international debut at Challenge Cup last month.

    Here are all the pairs' Senior B international scores this season:
    178.90 Caydee Denney/John Coughlin (121.61 FS) Nebelhorn Trophy, 2nd
    174.86 Marissa Castelli/Simon Shnapir (114.42) Ice Challenge (AUT), 1st
    167.82 Tarah Kayne/Daniel OíShea (113.71) Challenge Cup (NED), 2nd
    156.00 Alexa Scimeca/Chris Knierim (96.99) Cup of Nice (FRA), 1st
    148.56 DeeDee Leng/Timothy LeDuc (96.77) Challenge Cup (NED), 5th
    146.50 Kiri Baga/Taylor Toth (102.75) Challenge Cup (NED), 6th
    145.35 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (102.14) Nebelhorn Trophy, 4th
    143.34 Tiffany Vise/Don Baldwin (102.35) Salt Lake Senior B, 3rd
    143.32 Felicia Zhang/Nathan Bartholomay (95.88) Salt Lake Senior B, 4th
    135.43 Gretchen Donlan/Andrew Speroff (94.07) Ice Challenge (AUT), 2nd
    121.31 Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig (75.73) Salt Lake Senior B, 5th
    Certainly hope S/K can bring it at worlds...surprising seeing them 4th in both Season's best and Senior B competition scores. This team has certainly been given some major responsibility very early in their career.
    Last edited by jdonavan; 03-05-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  6. #966
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    Thanks, Sylvia and Doris. Here are the top marks to include all -

    DENNEY / COUGHLIN (179.21)
    CASTELLI / SHNAPIR (174.86)
    KAYNE / O'SHEA (167.82)
    ZHANG / BARTHOLOMAY (167.30)
    SCIMECA / KNIERIM (163.10)
    DENNEY / FRAZIER (155.83)
    LENG / LEDUC (148.56)
    BAGA / TOTH (146.50)
    DONLAN / SPEROFF (145.35)
    VISE / BALDWIN (143.34)

    Davis / Brubaker will be in the mix next season. The US seems to have a slowly growing pool of talent in pairs and the marks are an improvement over the last many seasons. They are not world-beaters yet, but a growing pool means at least a couple of pairs may blossom not just next season, but on the Road to Pyeongchang (sp?) in 2018.

    Amazed at how far down Donlan / Speroff have dropped.

    jdonovan, I think that the injury to Alexa at 4CC probably slowed their momentum. Perhaps their PB would be higher had they competed at 4CC's. As long as she's fully recovered (they got clearance to be back on the ice soon after 4CC's), they should be able to put out a bigger score.

  7. #967

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    Donlan/Speroff's best competition of the season, not just score-wise, was at Nationals (obviously for Davis/Ladwig as well).

    For completeness' sake , here were the placements and scores of the 10 U.S. Senior pairs at Nationals:
    180.61 Marissa Castelli, SC Of Boston / Simon Shnapir, SC Of Boston 62.27 (1) 118.34 (3)
    172.75 Alexa Scimeca, DuPage FSC / Christopher Knierim, Broadmoor SC 52.79 (3) 119.96 (1)
    172.02 Felicia Zhang, SC of New York / Nathan Bartholomay, University of Delaware FSC 53.19 (2) 118.83 (2)
    165.08 Lindsay Davis, All Year FSC / Mark Ladwig, Red River Valley FSC 51.65 (5) 113.43 (4)
    162.27 Haven Denney, Broadmoor SC / Brandon Frazier, All Year FSC 52.48 (4) 109.79 (6)
    159.67 Gretchen Donlan, SC Of Boston / Andrew Speroff, SC Of Boston 49.81 (7) 109.86 (5)
    148.32 Tarah Kayne, Southwest Florida FSC / Daniel O'Shea, Skokie Valley SC 47.74 (9) 100.58 (7)
    148.08 Kiri Baga, FSC of Bloomington / Taylor Toth, DuPage FSC 48.13 (8) 99.95 (8)
    143.71 DeeDee Leng, DuPage FSC / Timothy LeDuc, Eastern Iowa FSC 50.84 (6) 92.87 (10)
    143.35 Tiffany Vise, Coyotes SC of Arizona / Don Baldwin, Los Angeles FSC 44.41 (10) 98.94 (9)
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Donlan/Speroff's best competition of the season, not just score-wise, was at Nationals (obviously for Davis/Ladwig as well).

    For completeness' sake , here were the placements and scores of the 10 U.S. Senior pairs at Nationals:
    180.61 Marissa Castelli, SC Of Boston / Simon Shnapir, SC Of Boston 62.27 (1) 118.34 (3)
    172.75 Alexa Scimeca, DuPage FSC / Christopher Knierim, Broadmoor SC 52.79 (3) 119.96 (1)
    172.02 Felicia Zhang, SC of New York / Nathan Bartholomay, University of Delaware FSC 53.19 (2) 118.83 (2)
    165.08 Lindsay Davis, All Year FSC / Mark Ladwig, Red River Valley FSC 51.65 (5) 113.43 (4)
    162.27 Haven Denney, Broadmoor SC / Brandon Frazier, All Year FSC 52.48 (4) 109.79 (6)
    159.67 Gretchen Donlan, SC Of Boston / Andrew Speroff, SC Of Boston 49.81 (7) 109.86 (5)
    148.32 Tarah Kayne, Southwest Florida FSC / Daniel O'Shea, Skokie Valley SC 47.74 (9) 100.58 (7)
    148.08 Kiri Baga, FSC of Bloomington / Taylor Toth, DuPage FSC 48.13 (8) 99.95 (8)
    143.71 DeeDee Leng, DuPage FSC / Timothy LeDuc, Eastern Iowa FSC 50.84 (6) 92.87 (10)
    143.35 Tiffany Vise, Coyotes SC of Arizona / Don Baldwin, Los Angeles FSC 44.41 (10) 98.94 (9)
    Thanks, I left out Davis / Ladwig from my list because they are finished as a pair

  9. #969

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Thanks, Sylvia and Doris. Here are the top marks to include all -

    DENNEY / COUGHLIN (179.21)
    CASTELLI / SHNAPIR (174.86)
    KAYNE / O'SHEA (167.82)
    ZHANG / BARTHOLOMAY (167.30)
    SCIMECA / KNIERIM (163.10)
    DENNEY / FRAZIER (155.83)
    LENG / LEDUC (148.56)
    BAGA / TOTH (146.50)
    DONLAN / SPEROFF (145.35)
    VISE / BALDWIN (143.34)

    Davis / Brubaker will be in the mix next season. The US seems to have a slowly growing pool of talent in pairs and the marks are an improvement over the last many seasons. They are not world-beaters yet, but a growing pool means at least a couple of pairs may blossom not just next season, but on the Road to Pyeongchang (sp?) in 2018.

    Amazed at how far down Donlan / Speroff have dropped.

    jdonovan, I think that the injury to Alexa at 4CC probably slowed their momentum. Perhaps their PB would be higher had they competed at 4CC's. As long as she's fully recovered (they got clearance to be back on the ice soon after 4CC's), they should be able to put out a bigger score.
    Agreed...hope she is recovered!!

  10. #970

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Donlan/Speroff's best competition of the season, not just score-wise, was at Nationals (obviously for Davis/Ladwig as well).

    For completeness' sake , here were the placements and scores of the 10 U.S. Senior pairs at Nationals:
    180.61 Marissa Castelli, SC Of Boston / Simon Shnapir, SC Of Boston 62.27 (1) 118.34 (3)
    172.75 Alexa Scimeca, DuPage FSC / Christopher Knierim, Broadmoor SC 52.79 (3) 119.96 (1)
    172.02 Felicia Zhang, SC of New York / Nathan Bartholomay, University of Delaware FSC 53.19 (2) 118.83 (2)
    165.08 Lindsay Davis, All Year FSC / Mark Ladwig, Red River Valley FSC 51.65 (5) 113.43 (4)
    162.27 Haven Denney, Broadmoor SC / Brandon Frazier, All Year FSC 52.48 (4) 109.79 (6)
    159.67 Gretchen Donlan, SC Of Boston / Andrew Speroff, SC Of Boston 49.81 (7) 109.86 (5)
    148.32 Tarah Kayne, Southwest Florida FSC / Daniel O'Shea, Skokie Valley SC 47.74 (9) 100.58 (7)
    148.08 Kiri Baga, FSC of Bloomington / Taylor Toth, DuPage FSC 48.13 (8) 99.95 (8)
    143.71 DeeDee Leng, DuPage FSC / Timothy LeDuc, Eastern Iowa FSC 50.84 (6) 92.87 (10)
    143.35 Tiffany Vise, Coyotes SC of Arizona / Don Baldwin, Los Angeles FSC 44.41 (10) 98.94 (9)
    Gotta be honest though... Senior Pairs at Nats was scored very skewed towards those who had the min. Tech score for Worlds. The audience never lies...2 standing ovations were given: Z/B and D/L. I cannot help but wonder if Z/B had the tech score if they would be going to their first World's...

  11. #971

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    For better or for worse, the minimum scores are based only on TES.

    Audience reaction tends to be based more on the areas that are rewarded in PCS.

    Which can lead to paradoxes of a skater/team not meeting the minimum scores but placing higher overall than a skater/team who did meet them. Although that's not what happened in this particular case.

  12. #972
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    IMO, Z/B had a better skate at Nationals than S/K and should have been second overall. Regardless, I think both teams have similar scoring/placement potential at Worlds if they skate relatively well. My only concern would be her health. I am actually more concerned about C/S as their only really great performance in the last two comps was the SP at Nationals despite their placements. A top ten finish for either team is going to take two really great programs at Worlds. There is too much depth in the international field for any errors.
    Kayne/O'shea's performance at their Senior B certainly gives them momentum for next season. I really like this team and think they will be a force to be reckoned with in a few years if they stay together. Also, Leng/Leduc perform some lovely elements (especially their beautiful sbs triple toes) and have great potential. Not to mention we have the current World Junior Champions and the other Juniors moving up to Senior. Unfortunately, I fear D/S need to gain some consistency or they are going to be buried by new talent.
    I will withhold my judgement on Davis/Brubaker until I see what they put out this year. They are certainly an interesting pairing and will no doubt be in the medal hunt. I wonder if Y/R will skate together this season. I think that second Olympic spot (assuming we keep two spots which, barring disaster, is likely) is up for grabs between about four teams. Should be interesting....

  13. #973
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    Last edited by micronrd; 03-05-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonavan View Post
    Gotta be honest though... Senior Pairs at Nats was scored very skewed towards those who had the min. Tech score for Worlds. The audience never lies...2 standing ovations were given: Z/B and D/L. I cannot help but wonder if Z/B had the tech score if they would be going to their first World's...
    I'm relieved that there are actual judges for competitions and we don't just let the audience (only partly figure skating educated) vote for their favorites as if this were a made-for-TV contest like American Idol. I think it's also safe to assume that plenty of people in the audience aren't really paying attention to the same degree as a judge would, whether they know a lot about skating or not.

    I know a couple of you are from a certain area of Florida or seem to have allegiances and will talk up certain skaters regularly (or maybe you're unbiased despite where you're from, and these teams are truly the ones you prefer). But Scimeca/Knierim also had a strong performance at Nationals. Both S/K and Z/B had areas of their skating that they did better than the other team. And with those 2 teams finishing that close to each other (separated by .73), it indicates the result pretty much could have gone either way, which I think is accurate based on how they skated. As a result, I have a very hard time considering Z/B to have been robbed. I would feel differently if S/K were falling, really messing up the elements, or were really lagging behind Z/B in some aspect of skating, but they weren't. So regardless of whether or not the judges entered the competition with the idea that the World team should be C/S and S/K because they were the only ones with the min scores (if that's the case, it's just another reason why we need new selection procedures for Worlds, but that's a whole different story), to me the actual result seemed completely fine based on the quality of skating presented.
    Last edited by stjeaskategym; 03-05-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  15. #975
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    Last edited by micronrd; 03-05-2013 at 08:40 PM.

  16. #976

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    From their pre-Worlds media teleconference today as tweeted by USFS:
    "We had a pretty exciting #4CC and we are training every day and working on the finishing touches" - @MarissaCastelli

    @SimonShnapir emphasizes the point of consistency. Their goal is to put out two clean skates in London.

    @SimonShnapir says he & @MarissaCastelli took a break at their lowest point, but they knew they could achieve more and agreed to continue.

    "It was not easy but it was something we had to do." - @SimonShnapir - Look at them now, U.S. champions.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  17. #977
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    Last edited by carriemarie; 03-05-2013 at 10:24 PM.

  18. #978

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    Quote Originally Posted by stjeaskategym View Post
    I know a couple of you are from a certain area of Florida or seem to have allegiances and will talk up certain skaters regularly (or maybe you're unbiased despite where you're from, and these teams are truly the ones you prefer). But Scimeca/Knierim also had a strong performance at Nationals. Both S/K and Z/B had areas of their skating that they did better than the other team. And with those 2 teams finishing that close to each other (separated by .73), it indicates the result pretty much could have gone either way, which I think is accurate based on how they skated. As a result, I have a very hard time considering Z/B to have been robbed. I would feel differently if S/K were falling, really messing up the elements, or were really lagging behind Z/B in some aspect of skating, but they weren't.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  19. #979

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    Quote Originally Posted by stjeaskategym View Post
    I'm relieved that there are actual judges for competitions and we don't just let the audience (only partly figure skating educated) vote for their favorites as if this were a made-for-TV contest like American Idol. I think it's also safe to assume that plenty of people in the audience aren't really paying attention to the same degree as a judge would, whether they know a lot about skating or not.

    I know a couple of you are from a certain area of Florida or seem to have allegiances and will talk up certain skaters regularly (or maybe you're unbiased despite where you're from, and these teams are truly the ones you prefer). But Scimeca/Knierim also had a strong performance at Nationals. Both S/K and Z/B had areas of their skating that they did better than the other team. And with those 2 teams finishing that close to each other (separated by .73), it indicates the result pretty much could have gone either way, which I think is accurate based on how they skated. As a result, I have a very hard time considering Z/B to have been robbed. I would feel differently if S/K were falling, really messing up the elements, or were really lagging behind Z/B in some aspect of skating, but they weren't. So regardless of whether or not the judges entered the competition with the idea that the World team should be C/S and S/K because they were the only ones with the min scores (if that's the case, it's just another reason why we need new selection procedures for Worlds, but that's a whole different story), to me the actual result seemed completely fine based on the quality of skating presented.


    You obviously missed the senior pair short at Nationals. S/K fell on solo triple salchows and fell out of the throw flip and her skating was stumbly in general.

    I'm not any more biased towards a skater or team than anyone else on this fan page, however I am a fan of certain skaters and fair judging. The shorts at Nationals imo were not scored correctly.

    Please do nor assume where I am from nor put words in my mouth. I never said S/K were robbed. I have made the case that Z/B skating a clean short was very closely scored to flawed S/K program. Its my opinion and I'm free to express it.
    Last edited by jdonavan; 03-05-2013 at 11:54 PM.

  20. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonavan View Post
    Please do nor assume where I am from nor put words in my mouth. I never said S/K were robbed.
    You meant Z/B right? I definitely didn't mean to put words in your mouth... Earlier in the thread you said that many people felt Z/B would have been 2nd at Nationals if they had had the min. score. And then again on this page you wondered if Z/B would have finished higher if they had had the min. score. I interpreted that as you thinking Z/B were robbed, and I used that word because to me it was the easiest way to summarize your overall viewpoint-- that the judges may have manipulated the results based on who had the min. score. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying.

    I actually had forgotten about S/K's fall in the SP. I was focused mostly on the LP since I was replying to the post about standing ovations. I don't remember the SP being disastrous, but maybe it was, can't remember. Z/B were ahead after the SP, and would have been ahead by more had S/K not outscored them on 5 of the 7 elements in that program and had higher levels on a couple elements... So at least it wasn't some big unwarranted PCS boost from the judges to keep it closer.

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