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  1. #561
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    Re Sappenfield:

    I think the style and component aspect of her teams has honestly had everything to do with the actual skaters. D/C and S/K don't necessarily have the best skating skills and we can all tell. However if you look at some of her former teams such as Mclaughlin/Brubaker and Yankowskas/Coughlin, they had exceptional style, poise, and choreography. Give S/K some time together and I bet next season their programs will be far better than they clearly are this season. Unfortunately, D/C have yet to truly embrace their skillset as skaters in terms of natural movement, etc. Once they begin to find their syle, I'm sure they'll be much stronger internationally. They are trying!! (Hiring Camerlengo, etc...) But I don't know if Sappenfield is to be blamed for Denney's lack of grace. The skaters she molded (Mclaughlin, Yankowskas, even skaters like Paetsch, Carmen, and Simpson) all had/have STUNNING lift positions, skating skills, and general athleticism. She is clearly doing something right to have had the last 4/5 national champions.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pulaski73 View Post
    Re Sappenfield:

    I think the style and component aspect of her teams has honestly had everything to do with the actual skaters. D/C and S/K don't necessarily have the best skating skills and we can all tell. However if you look at some of her former teams such as Mclaughlin/Brubaker and Yankowskas/Coughlin, they had exceptional style, poise, and choreography. Give S/K some time together and I bet next season their programs will be far better than they clearly are this season. Unfortunately, D/C have yet to truly embrace their skillset as skaters in terms of natural movement, etc. Once they begin to find their syle, I'm sure they'll be much stronger internationally. They are trying!! (Hiring Camerlengo, etc...) But I don't know if Sappenfield is to be blamed for Denney's lack of grace. The skaters she molded (Mclaughlin, Yankowskas, even skaters like Paetsch, Carmen, and Simpson) all had/have STUNNING lift positions, skating skills, and general athleticism. She is clearly doing something right to have had the last 4/5 national champions.
    As I have stated, her results are quite impressive, and I am not blaming her for all of Caydee's 'issues'. Her positions are horrible, but the girl gets the job done and you can't argue with that. What I can argue with is Sappenfield's lack of desire to up the ante technically and go outside the box in any fashion in choreography and music. Her results are excellent domestically, but to break the barrier at Worlds changes need to be made. Keauna and Caitlyn have/had a natural talent, poise, and connection with music. Sappenfield didn't teach them those skills. My problem is that she doesn't seem to know how to package her skaters that aren't as gifted in that area properly.

  3. #563
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    . My problem is that she doesn't seem to know how to package her skaters that aren't as gifted in that area properly.[/QUOTE]


    I'm curious how would you in detail package her teams specifically? D/C, S/K, S/B, A/S, and anyone else that is her teams can't remember them all but I know there is a lot.....If you feel they are not "packaged" properly how would you do it? There are some challenges and certain things are NOT a coaches choice...money for costumes, money for choreographers, dance, extra lessons and sessions...additional coaching etc..but maybe that is not what you are talking about. I think she is brilliant with what she works with including families and skaters working in their realm of ability, financial capability and newness...although I am just assuming that when you put that many teams, pairs, individuals and families together you better be good at making sure you can figure that one out...must be hard!

    You continue to say the same thing without detail and I would love to hear what you would do specifically for these teams that are so lacking because you have a point I am not sure that saying it is not there without adding what specifically it is and how it can be improved is fair...and I am just nosy I guess..so if you care to share...

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by carriemarie View Post
    I am sorry, but D/C were much better than P/T at Skate America.
    Based on what criteria? Certainly not the same as the judges are using.

    They were fairly clean in events where there were multiple mistakes by the winners.
    Fairly clean? What does that even mean? They just land the elements and nothing else? D/C did do well on their throw in the short, however it wasn't high nor did she get far when she was thrown. Unlike Pang and Volosohzar who were thrown both high AND far. They did have slight errors on the landing, but nothing that would give them -1.00 or more and would I rather see that as opposed to a girl who lands it but barely gets off the ground and a guy who almost comes to a complete stop.

    I know that their PCS aren't as strong, but a clean skate is a clean skate and they deserved to be above the Chinese and B/L, respectively, in both of their GP's.
    At least you admit their PCS scores aren't up to snuff because that is HALF the score. You can have the highest base value and TES but if you can't do the elements BETTER than the competition (i.e. the best in the world); skating clean isn't going to cut it until the element and PCS scores are made as good as the skaters can do them. But if you have a coach who ignores the weaknesses of the team, they will NEVER get better. You can blame the two time World Champions for being who are they but there is no mistaking they are fabulous (11 years in the top four at Worlds except for two years when they were 5th, 2003 and 2008) Same with V/T who are now in their third year together but who were also 4th in the world with previous partners; they are fabulous skaters. Look at what happened to them in the short program at Worlds last year, there were 8th! So judges aren't afraid to give scores the teams deserve even if they already have a World silver medal.

    I think they were better than V/T at both competitions on those days
    I'm not sure if I should use or

    I am not saying Sappenfield gives them the right package as far as styling, choreography, and music, but they consistently deliver strong elements and near clean programs with confidence and that should be appropriately rewarded.
    They are appropriately awarded. Judges aren't holding them down, their coach is.

  5. #565
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    According to D/C bios Sappenfield did not choreograph their programs ? you are aware of this right? I think it says :
    Choreographer:
    Pasquale Camerlengo I don't know this person but I am assuming they are very good. Maybe someone else has information on them?


    Do you have a personal problem with this coach? cause it seems to me most of the pair teams work with either a choreographer or someone working on artistry like Patrick Chan's current coach works with them in the story Kathy someone? I read in US Figure Skating magazine...so most of this information is and seems bias against this coach for some personal reason? Most of the pair coaches by Junior or especially Senior level work with professional choreographers that are very experienced and talented...so confused there but it was interesting checking that out I learned some things.

  6. #566
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    Camerlengo is probably the most broadly admired choreographer in figure skating today, imo.

  7. #567

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    Dalilah Sappenfield choreographed Denney/Coughlin's "Aranjuez" SP after Champs Camp (Camerlengo had choreographed their swing medley SP originally, as well as their POTO free skate). ETA link to a D/C article from Skate America in October in which Kathy Johnson's work with them is mentioned: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-05-2012 at 05:17 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureit View Post
    . My problem is that she doesn't seem to know how to package her skaters that aren't as gifted in that area properly.

    I'm curious how would you in detail package her teams specifically? D/C, S/K, S/B, A/S, and anyone else that is her teams can't remember them all but I know there is a lot.....If you feel they are not "packaged" properly how would you do it? There are some challenges and certain things are NOT a coaches choice...money for costumes, money for choreographers, dance, extra lessons and sessions...additional coaching etc..but maybe that is not what you are talking about. I think she is brilliant with what she works with including families and skaters working in their realm of ability, financial capability and newness...although I am just assuming that when you put that many teams, pairs, individuals and families together you better be good at making sure you can figure that one out...must be hard!

    You continue to say the same thing without detail and I would love to hear what you would do specifically for these teams that are so lacking because you have a point I am not sure that saying it is not there without adding what specifically it is and how it can be improved is fair...and I am just nosy I guess..so if you care to share...[/QUOTE]



    I would hesitate to say what I would do with all of her teams. I don't think that I am capable of giving a list of issues for all of them, but I do think there are a lot of teams that are hindered by the amount of teams she coaches. She is a good coach, obviously, and knows what she is doing, but she has room for improvement with the SBS, with the throws, getting the full points on the lifts, and getting better PCS scores.

  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Based on what criteria? Certainly not the same as the judges are using.



    Fairly clean? What does that even mean? They just land the elements and nothing else? D/C did do well on their throw in the short, however it wasn't high nor did she get far when she was thrown. Unlike Pang and Volosohzar who were thrown both high AND far. They did have slight errors on the landing, but nothing that would give them -1.00 or more and would I rather see that as opposed to a girl who lands it but barely gets off the ground and a guy who almost comes to a complete stop.



    At least you admit their PCS scores aren't up to snuff because that is HALF the score. You can have the highest base value and TES but if you can't do the elements BETTER than the competition (i.e. the best in the world); skating clean isn't going to cut it until the element and PCS scores are made as good as the skaters can do them. But if you have a coach who ignores the weaknesses of the team, they will NEVER get better. You can blame the two time World Champions for being who are they but there is no mistaking they are fabulous (11 years in the top four at Worlds except for two years when they were 5th, 2003 and 2008) Same with V/T who are now in their third year together but who were also 4th in the world with previous partners; they are fabulous skaters. Look at what happened to them in the short program at Worlds last year, there were 8th! So judges aren't afraid to give scores the teams deserve even if they already have a World silver medal.



    I'm not sure if I should use or




    They are appropriately awarded. Judges aren't holding them down, their coach is.
    Get a clue. They were undermarked. Just because a throw was 'higher' with more 'distance' it should get more points than a strong, cleanly landed throw? Seriously? I am just stating what is obvious. I am not sure if I should use an eyeroll or LMAO for YOU. You clearly have little idea as what goes on in pair skating if you think P\T outskated D/C. I guess you can spend your time figuring out what fairly clean means and I don't have the time or will to explain it to you..............
    Last edited by carriemarie; 12-05-2012 at 05:50 AM.

  10. #570
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    I 100% agree with Carriemarie. D/C skated completely clean and were seriously undermarked. P/T and V/T should be getting higher PCS but their GOE on elements is outrageous. D/C Hit their elements and have excellent athleticism to do such and are not rewarded in grade of execution. I'm sorry, no matter how elegant they may be during the rest of their program, a botched throw should not be getting positive execution marks and a cleanly landed throw should be getting high ones. This can be the same for jumps, etc. But when an aborted lift (V/T at skate america) is getting positive GOE, you can't seriously believe the judging was good at Skam.

    And If you're going to say someone does a poor job at packaging someone, please give a specific example instead of just a "boo" without any support. It just doesn't make for an intellectual conversation. I think Sappenfield is just hit or miss with program ideas as is every choreographer. If you look at some of her previous progra,s (Again I use Keauna and Caitlin for examples) I thought M/B Romeo and Juliet was an excellent program as well as Y/C Ave Maria. M/B and Y/C Malaguena and Oblivion programs were exquisite on both ladies. Denney has A LOT of issues to work on artistically and Sappenfield is obviously trying (I think Aranjuez is a great program for her.) I also believe S/K Moonlight Sonata is entrancing as well, a little barren, but you can't throw in everything and the kitchen sink all at once. It would just be too much for them. I LOVE LOVE LOVE A/S programs this year and think she is essentially a Prima Ballerina on ice. Britney Simpson is a DIVA thanks to Dalilah as well and you could see people crying at nationals during their Titanic program. I think she's doing an A-Okay job with packaging thus far. We just don't love our national champions... that's the real problem IMO. They just really need a great vehicle for next year.

  11. #571

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    If you read the explanation for GOE in COP, it is clear that a cleanly executed throw with no errors and no outstanding features should receive a GOE of 0. Simply executing an element cleanly under COP is not supposed to earn an element high GOE.

    I don't really have an opinion on D/C vs. P/T but I'm thrilled that we have someone here with carriemarie's knowledge and expertise on pair skating to tell us which posters have no idea about what goes on in pair skating. And which judging panels. Really, I don't know what FSU would do if we had to assume that the judges might have some idea of what they are doing.

  12. #572

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pulaski73 View Post
    And If you're going to say someone does a poor job at packaging someone, please give a specific example instead of just a "boo" without any support.
    My problem with Sappenfield's choreography is she only does traditional programs. Be they ballet, dramatic soundtrack, Spanish or what not, unless you have naturally good posture, there's little effort to mask the posture problems or give a pair quirky programs where a non-balletic style would actually work in their favor. For example, I'd like to see D/C skate to something like Bald Mountain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmztA5iMUSA, minus the flexi moves) where the emphasis would be on energy, instead of trying to make her into a pwetty pwincess.

    I'm sure skaters she worked with starting at an early age do have good posture and look good with the types of programs she favors. My point (can't really speak for anyone else) was that these programs don't work for D/C.

  13. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    If you read the explanation for GOE in COP, it is clear that a cleanly executed throw with no errors and no outstanding features should receive a GOE of 0. Simply executing an element cleanly under COP is not supposed to earn an element high GOE.

    I don't really have an opinion on D/C vs. P/T but I'm thrilled that we have someone here with carriemarie's knowledge and expertise on pair skating to tell us which posters have no idea about what goes on in pair skating. And which judging panels. Really, I don't know what FSU would do if we had to assume that the judges might have some idea of what they are doing.
    Glad my knowledge could be of service
    Seriously, my point and my post was a bit snarky and condescending and that wasn't my intention. I understand the principle that a throw that has errors can get a better GOE than a landed one, especially if the landed one has technical issues. I don't think D/C have too many technical issues in their throws and they look quite nice when landed. I firmly believed they were undermarked at both their GP's and didn't have a chance in hell to be above third, regardless of how the top teams skated. Not all agree with me. It's fine, it's just my opinion, but I believe it is valid.

    As far as the styling issue, I think Sappenfield is trying to make D/C something they are not. Although the programs and costuming is totally improved from last year, I don't believe they should try to make Caydee into a ballerina. They should play up her more athletic style. I hesitate to truly criticize S/K since they have only been together a short time and are still a bit sloppy and working out the kinks. As far as her other teams, I feel like she tends to structure most of her programs in similar fashion and continues to use very generic music and cuts, but you can't argue with results like hers. I just feel for the US to reach the top tier in pairs thinking outside the box with technical content, music, and styling would benefit our teams. Obviously, Sappenfield knows what she is doing and is a great coach, but I wish she would be a bit more creative and work with a skater's strong points not against.
    Last edited by carriemarie; 12-05-2012 at 06:53 PM.

  14. #574
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    ^^^

    D/C did quite well at CoR. I believe their LP score was around 120 pts. for a clean program and no one would argue that the Russian pairs are significantly better than they are. Plus, they were at a disadvantage competing in Russia against the top 2 Russian teams (I consider B/L above K/S at this point) and their marks were quite inflated.

    But, the Russian teams received marks that were flat out too high. The British Commentators were aghast at V/T's mark!

  15. #575
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    Bad news for US Pairs:
    http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=48740&type=media

    Best of luck to John in his rehab. This is the second US athlete to have surgery for a torn hip labrum.

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    ^^^

    D/C did quite well at CoR. I believe their LP score was around 120 pts. for a clean program and no one would argue that the Russian pairs are significantly better than they are. Plus, they were at a disadvantage competing in Russia against the top 2 Russian teams (I consider B/L above K/S at this point) and their marks were quite inflated.

    But, the Russian teams received marks that were flat out too high. The British Commentators were aghast at V/T's mark!
    I believe D/C will eventually be rewarded for consistently skating solid performances. As I said, I am not an uber-fan of them by any means, but I appreciate the fact they have great determination and seem like they do really well under pressure. I am never worried they are going to bomb. They seem like they practice clean programs daily and just go out and perform them in competition. They certainly lack the flair and natural skating ability of the Russian teams, but they can always work to improve their PCS, while I think B/L's technical problems and incosistencies will be harder to clean up. I would never say D/C are better than the Russians, but at CoR they were quite good given what the Russians put out skating wise. And I have always felt V/T's marks were very, very high regardless of the competition.

    ETA-just saw the above post. Does this mean D/C are out for Nationals?

  17. #577

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    Yes, I think it's a safe assumption that Denney/Coughlin are out for Nationals.

    ETA link to the new thread started in GSD: John Coughlin Out Due to Hip Surgery
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-05-2012 at 08:20 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  18. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Yes, I think it's a safe assumption that Denney/Coughlin are out for Nationals.
    Yeah that's a safe assumption. I'm not a doctor but I do work at a hospital and hip surgeries usually take about 3-6 months to fully heal from, including time for physical therapy so I really can't see them skating again this season. But I guess we'll have to wait and see for the official word from team Denney & Coughlin.

  19. #579

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    I just wanted to say I'm a *fan* of Sappenfield's choreography, packaging, et al, always have been, and was hoping D/S would go to her...

  20. #580

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    Thanks for the info, Catherine M.

    Andrew Speroff was with Sappenfield originally (for at least 3 partners after Rachael Flatt). I believe he relocated to Boston because Donlan was underage at the time and couldn't easily move herself.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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