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  1. #541

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    ITA re Sappenfield.

    But she surely knows how to teach triple twists and throw flips & lutzes.

    Why doesn't she work out some deal with a decent stylist or costume expert

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    ITA re Sappenfield.

    But she surely knows how to teach triple twists and throw flips & lutzes.

    Why doesn't she work out some deal with a decent stylist or costume expert
    Yes, Interesting point. Styling / costuming from the Sappenfield camp is very 'pageanty' looking and probably gets a outside of NA.

    Does this mean S/K are doomed?

  3. #543

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    They're only doomed if they choose to be. AFAIK coaches can't prevent their skaters from seeking outside help or choreo, of course provided they can afford it. I think its pretty early to say that a team like this could be doomed from improving. But yes if they just stay with the traditional CO teams mode of blah programs from year to year, then they probably will be semi-doomed from ascending high up the world rankings. The only US team I've ever seen come out with a ton of awesome choreo and style in their first year was Scott/Fein. Although I can't really say there were a ton of other teams in the 90s or 00s with a truly amazing level of presentation. I'd say Kalesavich/Parchem, Magarian/Guzman, Spielberg/Joeright, Evora/Ladwig, Donlan/Speroff, and Castelli/Shnapir at each of their best have been some of my favorite teams of the last couple decades, and sadly most of these teams have been lacking on the tech side.

  4. #544

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    C&S are improving this year. They have landed 3t and 3S in competitions. I'm not sure why they are leaving a 2A combo or sequence in the LP, because they always muff it. However, they need another throw other than the 3S they use. They vacillate between 2A (which is too low a BV) and 3A (which they haven't landed reliably). OTOH, the lifts, twists, and death spirals are fine.

    Their speed is currently very good. I have hopes for them still !

  5. #545
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    Kalesevich/Parchem had wonderful choreography from his wife-to-be, and they had style.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    C&S are improving this year. They have landed 3t and 3S in competitions. I'm not sure why they are leaving a 2A combo or sequence in the LP, because they always muff it. However, they need another throw other than the 3S they use. They vacillate between 2A (which is too low a BV) and 3A (which they haven't landed reliably). OTOH, the lifts, twists, and death spirals are fine.

    Their speed is currently very good. I have hopes for them still !
    I think it's been stated in this thread (or another) that C/S choose to do the throw 3x (or 2x) because those throws are actually more reliable for C/S than a throw 3f or throw 3l (I had asked the same question).

    Maybe a SBS 3t and SBS 3s in their LP is coming soon. I honestly think with those SBS jumps and a different throw, they could take D/C. They've really made a ton of headway this season!


    Quote Originally Posted by haribobo View Post
    They're only doomed if they choose to be. AFAIK coaches can't prevent their skaters from seeking outside help or choreo, of course provided they can afford it. I think its pretty early to say that a team like this could be doomed from improving. But yes if they just stay with the traditional CO teams mode of blah programs from year to year, then they probably will be semi-doomed from ascending high up the world rankings.
    My statement was just tongue in cheek because I'm becoming a fan of theirs ...

  7. #547

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    ITA re Sappenfield.

    But she surely knows how to teach triple twists and throw flips & lutzes.

    Why doesn't she work out some deal with a decent stylist or costume expert
    I wish she would. It seems that the coaches with teams that have great style/lines struggle so much technically. We need to take the strengths of each and build the perfect coach.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    I wish she would. It seems that the coaches with teams that have great style/lines struggle so much technically. We need to take the strengths of each and build the perfect coach.
    This is assuming that coaches and anyone else for that matter buy costumes? I am sure coaches would love to have everything but it is a process. MY favorite programs have been very simple costumes WITHOUT stylists. I think teams do the best they can. Since families are paying for training etc etc...highering people to ie:"style you" is ridiculous. It is a performance sport so yes costume is important but please be real about it. As far as bringing the perfect coaches together that sounds a little like "Stetford Wives" and I have no desire to ever have that happen...ever...I think they all bring something special...in their discipline.
    I was at a Nationals once where people were complaining about a person wearing the same costume two years in a row. They said "we pay good money for these tickets so they should change their costumes?" That particular person was not only paying for skating themselves but instead of getting a new costume paid for his Aunts Chemo by working three jobs???. Get a grip...they are not celebrities earning millions for movies...or the Kardashians...so....let that one go and be real.

    As far as Sappenfield check the stats...she is the most successful pairs coach in the USA I started checking that out after France and NHK...it's amazing. Look at 08 and all the years she has coached...she is not perfect no one is...but man she is smart as a whip and obviously knows her discipline...I also love the Boston coaches and the Florida coaches..it is fun to see Menno and Sand coaching some up and comers...so...? um I think telling a brand new team barely together 6 months they are doomed cause they are with the most celebrated coach in the US is a little extreme...

    As far as changes I hope there is development not changes...S/K are awesome I love some of the other teams too I as a whole am very excited about where things are going..in US Pairs...and ya never know this new team and some others have brought HUGE surprises this year I DOUBT that will end in the future. from any of them. C/S well I have to say I thought they would never break through as they tend to blow it at Nats..but look things change Also Simon is tall and kind of clunky but this year he is a part of the choreography...so exciting!!
    I do love D'C too I have to say she is a spark of life that girl...and they seem happy on the ice. They don't owe me? I am just enjoying a very very difficult discipline taught by very talented coaches and enjoying their love of spirit and sport. Have you seen how high those twists are??? I would not be caught DEAD doing that...it is soooo hard!!!! Thanks goodness they are all brave enough to bring their talents and dedicate everything they own, have and do to this sport I so love watching pairs!! whoot whoot!!!

  9. #549

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    ITA re Sappenfield.

    But she surely knows how to teach triple twists and throw flips & lutzes.

    Why doesn't she work out some deal with a decent stylist or costume expert
    Actually... every lady that has a throw flip/lutz in Sappenfield's camp has learned and mastered it with other coaches. Any "home grown" (if any) teams she has do salchow and loop....

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdonavan View Post
    Actually... every lady that has a throw flip/lutz in Sappenfield's camp has learned and mastered it with other coaches. Any "home grown" (if any) teams she has do salchow and loop....

    I am sure with her and other coaches you do what the person or pair can do best from what I can tell but correct me if I am wrong.that is why C/S are doing throw Daxel??? in lew of another throw triple....The coach has almost nothing to do with that....some people are good at toe jumps/throws and some are good with edge throws.kinda depends on the person and usually someone with awesome turnout cannot do a flip or lutz very well..someone with more closed hips can do those better...that has been my experience although it is not vast..as far as other countries the coaching and training seems to be different more like you are doing this or else..where in America it is based more on what the skater "Likes" or "feels good about".

    ..as a coach that is not always in your control. Can't really say the same for the twist though...she for sure owns that...technique whatever it is...I've not seen any pair coach come close to that element the way she can obviously teach it....
    As far as different elements as skaters it seems to me there are favorites in elements...some love toe elements some edge elements...some love a more soft balletic approach some love to go fast and be killers on the ice..you can shape and mold but you cannot make it happen when it is not there...you work with and capitalize on what the assets are...that is always what John Nicks and Frank Carroll did...they did not teach a lot of basic skills learn to skate preliminaries...??? Good skaters came to them on the rise cause they were successful in their disciplines and those coaches worked with their assets and helped to create the dream... just thoughts...

  11. #551
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    Also interested in what other think about this? IS it possible to teach what you want to teach regardless of the student body shape or ??? I know until recently the throw Triple flip and Lutz were really not required at all..then one year you had to do throw toeloop and I thought teams would die!! they all hated it..from what I could tell on their faces at Nats one year...it was scary....loop and salcow were the standard and as they are done more you will see them more but wondering if anyone else thinks it is more body shape and beginning training of the student at a non-elite level that shapes the student or can an elite skater come to an elite coach at the Senior or Junior level and be taught totally different elements and feel good about changes everything they know or are comfortable with? Just wondering...as a skater I was never great at lutz or flip and hated toes of any kind...loved edge jumps loop sal etc...could do them in my sleep but doing a flip was death to me. Wondering if anyone thinks it makes a different in pairs?

  12. #552

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    Quote Originally Posted by figureit View Post
    This is assuming that coaches and anyone else for that matter buy costumes? I am sure coaches would love to have everything but it is a process. MY favorite programs have been very simple costumes WITHOUT stylists. I think teams do the best they can. Since families are paying for training etc etc...highering people to ie:"style you" is ridiculous. It is a performance sport so yes costume is important but please be real about it. As far as bringing the perfect coaches together that sounds a little like "Stetford Wives" and I have no desire to ever have that happen...ever...I think they all bring something special...in their discipline.
    I was at a Nationals once where people were complaining about a person wearing the same costume two years in a row. They said "we pay good money for these tickets so they should change their costumes?" That particular person was not only paying for skating themselves but instead of getting a new costume paid for his Aunts Chemo by working three jobs???. Get a grip...they are not celebrities earning millions for movies...or the Kardashians...so....let that one go and be real.
    I don't think anyone should spend big bucks on a stylist, and I would never criticize a skater for rewearing costumes. I can only imagine how much they cost, but I don't think that not spending big bucks has to equate bad costuming. And I wasn't even referring to costuming when I said style. Good choreography and overall presentation are necessary. As successful as Sappenfield's pairs are, they all struggle to break into the top tier of pairs. I do think she knows elements and is good at getting her skaters to be consistent, but the music/choreography needs work.

  13. #553
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    I agree with this except where it pertains to M/B they were exquisite so I think it always needs work..and is a work in progress and depends on the skater...no magic sometimes it is who the person/skater is that determines that... not with her teams with all teams..once in awhile you get a M/B and other teams that have a gift of all style/choreography etc...a natural gift there but they usually struggle with technique..so I think it is a work in progress and is what it is sometimes...
    Wow M/B were so amazing! Hope Rockne finds a suitable partner sometime.

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    ^^ I take it you are referring to McLaughlin/ Brubaker, and not Marley/ Brubaker, since Mary Beth and Rockne were not coached by Sappenfield? I really enjoyed both M/B teams ... unfortunate for Rockne and fans of him and his partners that the partnerships were short-lived. Wishing Rockne the perfect pairing soon and wonderful success.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureit View Post
    I am sure with her and other coaches you do what the person or pair can do best from what I can tell but correct me if I am wrong.that is why C/S are doing throw Daxel??? in lew of another throw triple....The coach has almost nothing to do with that....some people are good at toe jumps/throws and some are good with edge throws.kinda depends on the person and usually someone with awesome turnout cannot do a flip or lutz very well..someone with more closed hips can do those better...that has been my experience although it is not vast..as far as other countries the coaching and training seems to be different more like you are doing this or else..where in America it is based more on what the skater "Likes" or "feels good about".

    ..as a coach that is not always in your control. Can't really say the same for the twist though...she for sure owns that...technique whatever it is...I've not seen any pair coach come close to that element the way she can obviously teach it....
    As far as different elements as skaters it seems to me there are favorites in elements...some love toe elements some edge elements...some love a more soft balletic approach some love to go fast and be killers on the ice..you can shape and mold but you cannot make it happen when it is not there...you work with and capitalize on what the assets are...that is always what John Nicks and Frank Carroll did...they did not teach a lot of basic skills learn to skate preliminaries...??? Good skaters came to them on the rise cause they were successful in their disciplines and those coaches worked with their assets and helped to create the dream... just thoughts...

    I think Jdonavon's point is that the Delilah's teams don't try the lutz/flip throw unless they previously were able to do it with other partners (ie Denney w/Barrett). I think you can go with skaters strong points, but Delilah's teams aren't really raising the bar technically or artistically. She obviously gets her teams where they need to be domestically, but also is very generic, perhaps because she has so many skaters on her plate. I certainly cannot argue with her teams general consistency or results, but I think if America wants to be competitive on a global scale more technical difficulty and more emphasis on artristry/style needs to be addressed from the ground up all the way to D/C.

  16. #556
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by carriemarie View Post
    I think Jdonavon's point is that the Delilah's teams don't try the lutz/flip throw unless they previously were able to do it with other partners (ie Denney w/Barrett). I think you can go with skaters strong points, but Delilah's teams aren't really raising the bar technically or artistically. She obviously gets her teams where they need to be domestically, but also is very generic, perhaps because she has so many skaters on her plate. I certainly cannot argue with her teams general consistency or results, but I think if America wants to be competitive on a global scale more technical difficulty and more emphasis on artristry/style needs to be addressed from the ground up all the way to D/C.

    I can see that but I don't think it applies to just certain teams but America in general. I think Technically we compete, in consistency we compete..yes artistry/choreography is important ..but when I see pang and tong wipe the ice on throws, death spirals jumps etc and have horrible lift positions and get 1st or second? well ?? That's just nuts!! Lets face it we are not the super power where pairs are concerned and never have been it wouldn't matter what we did on a world level.. I have seen judging still be an issue with giving America or even Canada its "just" scoring...someone said in the NHK or another GP forum I think? that the Russians or whomever could stay in the locker rooms and still win? The Germans who have horrible costumes and packaging this year (personal opinion) and some weird stuff going on in both programs could also stay in the locker room and still win...fair?( I do however appreciate them pushing the bar and doing sometimes crazy stuff) America being competitive happens now..D/C are doing great so are C/S really impressed with them as well as S/K I think D/S have a lot to offer too.love their style!..they all have positive and points to work on but not sure if they do they would ever beat Pang and Tong just due to politics..?? winning on a global scale without coming out of the locker room..??? not sure that is in the cards..It is just the life of pairs. Eventually USA made it happen in Dance but I am not sure pairs is ready for that. I hope it happens though...would be spectacular! and I still hold out hope that one day America will have that happen... along with fair judging in all disciplines at all world events and stages! as long as judging involves some personal likes and dislikes though or as long as it is judged by a persons feelings (PCS)and countries that will not allow Americans / Canadians to be on top without a severe fight... and it is not judged like a race where there is a clear winner and not a judging of a personal nature not sure it will but who knows...anything is possible.

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureit View Post
    I can see that but I don't think it applies to just certain teams but America in general. I think Technically we compete, in consistency we compete..yes artistry/choreography is important ..but when I see pang and tong wipe the ice on throws, death spirals jumps etc and have horrible lift positions and get 1st or second? well ?? That's just nuts!! Lets face it we are not the super power where pairs are concerned and never have been it wouldn't matter what we did on a world level.. I have seen judging still be an issue with giving America or even Canada its "just" scoring...someone said in the NHK or another GP forum I think? that the Russians or whomever could stay in the locker rooms and still win? The Germans who have horrible costumes and packaging this year (personal opinion) and some weird stuff going on in both programs could also stay in the locker room and still win...fair? (I do however appreciate them pushing the bar and doing sometimes crazy stuff) America being competitive happens now..D/C are doing great so are C/S really impressed with them as well as S/K I think D/S have a lot to offer too.love their style!..they all have positive and points to work on but not sure if they do they would ever beat Pang and Tong just due to politics..?? winning on a global scale without coming out of the locker room..??? not sure that is in the cards..It is just the life of pairs. Eventually USA made it happen in Dance but I am not sure pairs is ready for that. I hope it happens though...would be spectacular! and I still hold out hope that one day America will have that happen... along with fair judging in all disciplines at all world events and stages! as long as judging involves some personal likes and dislikes though or as long as it is judged by a persons feelings (PCS)and countries that will not allow Americans / Canadians to be on top without a severe fight... and it is not judged like a race where there is a clear winner and not a judging of a personal nature not sure it will but who knows...anything is possible.
    You seem to forget S/S won a bronze last year at NHK, so no, the judges are not just giving golds away to undeserving teams. There are no American teams right now that can challenge the top teams in the world, P/T included. It has to do with who they are partnered with and how they are packaged. D/C having a great twist and throws are not enough to downplay their weaknesses. Until these pairs get better choreography, they will only win in a very weak field or they need to hope the top teams mess up that badly. The sooner Sappenfield realizes that the better her teams will be.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by figureit View Post
    I can see that but I don't think it applies to just certain teams but America in general. I think Technically we compete, in consistency we compete..yes artistry/choreography is important ..but when I see pang and tong wipe the ice on throws, death spirals jumps etc and have horrible lift positions and get 1st or second? well ?? That's just nuts!! Lets face it we are not the super power where pairs are concerned and never have been it wouldn't matter what we did on a world level.. I have seen judging still be an issue with giving America or even Canada its "just" scoring...someone said in the NHK or another GP forum I think? that the Russians or whomever could stay in the locker rooms and still win? The Germans who have horrible costumes and packaging this year (personal opinion) and some weird stuff going on in both programs could also stay in the locker room and still win...fair?( I do however appreciate them pushing the bar and doing sometimes crazy stuff) America being competitive happens now..D/C are doing great so are C/S really impressed with them as well as S/K I think D/S have a lot to offer too.love their style!..they all have positive and points to work on but not sure if they do they would ever beat Pang and Tong just due to politics..?? winning on a global scale without coming out of the locker room..??? not sure that is in the cards..It is just the life of pairs. Eventually USA made it happen in Dance but I am not sure pairs is ready for that. I hope it happens though...would be spectacular! and I still hold out hope that one day America will have that happen... along with fair judging in all disciplines at all world events and stages! as long as judging involves some personal likes and dislikes though or as long as it is judged by a persons feelings (PCS)and countries that will not allow Americans / Canadians to be on top without a severe fight... and it is not judged like a race where there is a clear winner and not a judging of a personal nature not sure it will but who knows...anything is possible.


    IA about Pang and Tong, but they have been around for, what, four Olympic quads now? That certainly helps their scores, although I don't think it's right and don't agree with it. I am not a fan of V/T and think they are way overmarked, but I do enjoy the Germans and their crazy style. The problem is America lacks a team with any sort of longevity. I am sure if D/C go for 2018 their marks will improve even if they don't, especially with their consistency and retirements of some of the top teams. I agree that there are teams in the US with potential, but there have always been teams with potential in the US and for whatever reason they don't reach it, break up, or retire before they can truly get to the top level of the sport. It has never been about the US not having the talent or depth in pairs. I blame it on the mindset of breaking up if you have one bad season, one coach cornering most of the market (as I think the Florida and Boston teams have much more interesting and innovative programs because they haven't taken on every student they can get), and the inability of the USFS to be able to politically back a team because of the constant changes in partners and different champions every year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    You seem to forget S/S won a bronze last year at NHK, so no, the judges are not just giving golds away to undeserving teams. There are no American teams right now that can challenge the top teams in the world, P/T included. It has to do with who they are partnered with and how they are packaged. D/C having a great twist and throws are not enough to downplay their weaknesses. Until these pairs get better choreography, they will only win in a very weak field or they need to hope the top teams mess up that badly. The sooner Sappenfield realizes that the better her teams will be.
    I am sorry, but D/C were much better than P/T at Skate America. I don't like the team or their asthetic, but in both their GP's they were severely undermarked for what they did compared to the other teams. They were fairly clean in events where there were multiple mistakes by the winners. I know that their PCS aren't as strong, but a clean skate is a clean skate and they deserved to be above the Chinese and B/L, respectively, in both of their GP's. I think they were better than V/T at both competitions on those days (although I don't think they are a better team), but as current world silver medalists I can better understand them being held up. I am not saying Sappenfield gives them the right package as far as styling, choreography, and music, but they consistently deliver strong elements and near clean programs with confidence and that should be appropriately rewarded.

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    Spot on comments from Figureit and Carriemarie. The pairs' judging at Skate America was lacking. The Russians gained positive GOE's for sloppily executed elements, while Pang and Tong limped into town without triples, flailed around on other elements and still won silver.

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