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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    This is what the autopsy report states: "The wound is consistent with a wound of entrance of intermediate range."

    Gunshot wounds are typically classified as contact wounds, near-contact wounds, intermediate wounds, and distant wounds. Intermediate means being or occurring at the middle place, stage, or degree between extremes...which does support Trayvon standing. Trayvon being shot while on top of Zimmerman banging his head in the ground would have resulted in a contact or near-contact wound.
    It is classified as being fired between 1 and 18 inches. That's a range. It could be 1 or 18 inches or anything in between. The reports I've seen call it a close range, not intermediate. LA Times:
    A Florida Department of Law Enforcement lab report, based on a study of the bullet hole in Martin's clothing, that determined he was shot at extremely close range.
    And from the ABC report quoted on this thread:
    The autopsy also shows that Zimmerman shot Martin from a distance of between 1 inch and 18 inches away, bolstering Zimmerman's claim that he shot Martin during a close struggle.
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    And again, the autopsy report says that witnesses saw Trayvon fall to the ground after being shot. One doesn't fall to the ground if already on the ground in a struggle.
    He wasn't on the ground per witnesses, however but on top of Z.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-18-2012 at 06:58 PM.
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  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Are you stereotyping Trayvon?
    Sparks is trained in psychology, I'm not sure exactly what her degree is, but I do know that she knows what she's talking about.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    Sparks is trained in psychology, I'm not sure exactly what her degree is, but I do know that she knows what she's talking about.
    I have a degree in psychology as well as years of social work experience involving mostly underprivileged population prior to the switch to my current profession. Doesn't give one the excuse to stereotype someone based on their skin color and age.
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    Ok, what if someone put together the numbers from thousands of 911 calls & found out that a tiny percentage were made by minority teenagers. If someone then said that minority teenagers made very few 911 calls, woud you call that stereotyping minorities? Or would he/she just be stating a fact?

    Frankly, I would find it surprising if any male in Martin's situation had called 911. I don't think my husband would have unless he knew the other person had a gun. He always thinks he can take care of himself. And he's not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination.

  5. #105
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    One could also hide behind the crime and incarceration statistics to stereotype against young black males.
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  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    One could also hide behind the crime and incarceration statistics to stereotype against young black males.
    Yeah, like GZ and the FLA police dept. did.

    I was only offering one of the thousand possible reasons why Trevon didn't call 9 11.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    And not one has ever mentioned marijuana-induced paranoia? Again, not that it was a factor in this case as mentioned, but really?

    Yes, munches and zoning out are common but a paranoid state isn't that rare either.
    Okay, to lighten the mood and cool some of the hotter heads, here's a good take on pot and paranoia (as well as munchies, and cocaine)

    A True Classic

    *****

    I was the one who initially brought up the fact that marijuana was found in Trayvon Martin's toxicology report. I wasn't implying in any way that he was high at the time this happened -- I simply mentioned what was written in the article.

    As has been stated here and in news articles, he was shot from a distance of anywhere from 1 to 18 inches. Some are claiming that Trayvon was "standing" over Zimmerman, others (primarily witnesses, IIRC correctly) stated that Martin was on top of him. Given that he was 6'2", it seem possible that he could have been not standing, but upright but on his knees rather than on his feet (but not kneeling over Zimmerman's body). From a distance and in the dark, that could have been perceived as "standing."

    Right now, especially with what seems to be a shit-ton of new documentation to be analyzed, it's hardly time to make concrete assumptions as to what exactly happened that night.

    At this point I cannot and will not side with either party involved as we just don't know enough to accurately assess the situation.

    However, I will say that JulieAnn, you seem to be rather adamant in accusing and attacking IceAlisa of fully taking Zimmerman's "side" of things. I find that a bit ironic as well as hypocritical as you seem to have single-handedly accused, tried, and convicted Zimmerman of Murder. Maybe YOU need to step off, leave your emotions out of your thought process, and let the actual investigators and attorneys for both the prosecution and the defense do their jobs rather than doing it for them based on media reports (which, as has been more than proven to be less than neutral with regard to covering this tragic incident).
    Last edited by Cyn; 05-18-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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  8. #108
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    I don't think I would side with either Z's or Trayvon's side at this point either, to be honest.

    At first, it seemed like an open and shut case with Trayvon being shot for nothing and Z appearing uninjured in that police video. Then things got more complicated and now they are getting more complicated still. Plus the questions I am asking of Z are unlikely to ever be answered barring some new and yet unheard of evidence emerges.
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  9. #109
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    At risk of stereotyping, I would be very unsurprised to have it confirmed that females, who have been warned all their lives about walking alone or the dangers of men, would be much more likely to call the police in a situation such as yours (or Trayvon's) than females would. Plus, Trayvon was already on the phone, which may have lead him to believe he was safer than he was (I always have felt that an attacked is far less likely to attack someone who is talking to someone and can identify them on the phone before anything happens, though I may be imagining that), and he was in an area he shouldn't have been which might have made him less likely to call 9-1-1.

    I am not at all surprised he did not call 9-1-1 and do not believe that that is at all significant in this case.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    At risk of stereotyping, I would be very unsurprised to have it confirmed that females, who have been warned all their lives about walking alone or the dangers of men, would be much more likely to call the police in a situation such as yours (or Trayvon's) than females would.
    That second "females" should be "males"?

    Plus, Trayvon was already on the phone, which may have lead him to believe he was safer than he was (I always have felt that an attacked is far less likely to attack someone who is talking to someone and can identify them on the phone before anything happens, though I may be imagining that),
    That could be.

    and he was in an area he shouldn't have been which might have made him less likely to call 9-1-1.
    How was he in an area he shouldn't have been? Zimmermann didn't recognize him and therefore thought he shouldn't have been there. But from Martin's point of view, he was in his Dad's neighborhood walking home from the store. Why would he think he shouldn't he have been there?

    I am not at all surprised he did not call 9-1-1 and do not believe that that is at all significant in this case.
    I agree with all who say that different individuals may react in different ways and the fact that the poster wouldn't have done the same thing doesn't in itself make the action (or lack of action) suspicious.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    Yeah, like GZ and the FLA police dept. did.

    I was only offering one of the thousand possible reasons why Trevon didn't call 9 11.
    IOW, he didn't call because he was a black teen, is that what you are saying? How is one statistic OK and not another in your opinion?
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  12. #112

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    While even 5 year olds have been known to call 911 in an emergency, Trayvon being followed while walking back to his father's house at 7 p.m. may not have seemed like an emergency situation to him. Of course, had he known that Zimmerman was carrying a gun, he may have acted quite differently (called 911, run home as his girl friend suggested, etc.). IMO the likelihood of him approaching and/or confronting Zimmerman if he knew/thought that, would be much, much less (nearly non-existent). Again, just all my speculation. (I don't think that I would have called 911 myself -- but if I were in a strange neighborhood or it were several hours later, I might have. But I'm a woman and not a teenaged boy.)
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  13. #113
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    I think it's safe to assume that Trayvon didn't think Z had a gun.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    It is classified as being fired between 1 and 18 inches. That's a range. It could be 1 or 18 inches or anything in between. The reports I've seen call it a close range, not intermediate. LA Times:

    And from the ABC report quoted on this thread:

    He wasn't on the ground per witnesses, however but on top of Z.
    You're basing everything on what you've read in news reports. Did you read the autopsy report that was posted earlier in the thread? It doesn't say "close range", or contact range, or near contact range, but intermediate range. Nowhere does it state Trayvon was fired between 1 and 18 inches.

    And, if Zimmerman's head is supposedly being bashed into the ground, that means he was on the ground, and if Trayvon is straddling/on top of him, he's on the ground as well.

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    Why would an autopsy report contain definitive information on the range of the shot as in 1-18 inches? That's something that would come from the ballistics report.

    This article quotes a forensic expert who thinks the trajectory of the bullet doesn't help determine whether they were standing or wrestling on the ground. http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/co...sap=1&nav=5020
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-18-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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    Would trained medical personnel be able to tell the closeness and angle of the bullet by the nature of the wound, what organs were hit or not, etc?
    I believe the Coroner is certainly qualified to make a judgment (unless I'm guilty of stereotyping Coroners).

  17. #117
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    An ME is qualified to comment on the nature of the wound and what organs were hit as well as make estimations as to range. The exact trajectory and range is determined by a ballistics expert.


    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post

    And, if Zimmerman's head is supposedly being bashed into the ground, that means he was on the ground, and if Trayvon is straddling/on top of him, he's on the ground as well.
    You do know one can fall to the ground from say, reclining position or a straddling position or from being on top of another person? One doesn't have to be standing to fall to the ground.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Why would an autopsy report contain definitive information on the range of the shot as in 1-18 inches?
    Exactly. Instead, the ME use the terms "contact", "near-contact", "intermediate", and "distant" to describe the range of an entrance would. You're the one quoting news reports and experts (who didn't actually examine Trayvon's murdered body) about the shot being in the range of 1 - 18 inches. And personally, it seems incredulous to me that being shot an inch or even 18 inches away is intermediate rather than near-contact range. Heavens, how much closer can the shooter get?

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    Voice analysis expert says the cries did not come from Zimmerman.
    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ific-certainty

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I don't think I would side with either Z's or Trayvon's side at this point either, to be honest.
    Except there is no Trayvon's side, because George Zimmerman shot and killed him.
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