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  1. #61
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    What did the toxicology report say?

    I also think that marijuana is a minor issue.

    What is now a major issue, is that witnesses and police reports support Zimmerman's version of events.
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    Peter G - Jessica Hahn was 'with' Jim Bakker.
    Being aroung marijuana smoke does not make one test positive. That is a myth.
    Marijuana does stay in one's system longer than other drugs.

    Where is the toxicology report for Zimmerman? I thought he sounded intoxicated on those 9 11 calls.

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    If I smoke a joint today, it will show up in my system 30 days from now even if I don't smoke again. A "bad trip"? We're talking marijuana, not LSD.

    I find this interesting in the autopsy report: "Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground." IMO this says several things: Trayvon was standing when shot--not on the ground straddling Zimmerman and banging his head in the ground. The direction of the projectile being "directly from front to back" also supports Trayvon standing when shot. If Trayon were straddling Zimmerman when shot, the direction would have angled upward. I think the report also supports that it's Trayvon yelling for help, likely when he saw Zimmerman's gun. Reportedly, the shot happened seconds after the yell.

    Taking Zimmerman's medical report at face value, I think what happened is that the two fought, Zimmerman got the worst of it, and when the two (who perhaps did momentarily fight on the ground) got to their feet, Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. If correct, definitely 2nd degree murder...not self-defense nor standing his ground.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    If I smoke a joint today, it will show up in my system 30 days from now even if I don't smoke again. A "bad trip"? We're talking marijuana, not LSD.
    Are you seriously suggesting that one can't have a bad trip on marijuana??? Wow.

    Anyway, I don't think that's what happened to Trayvon.
    The amount described in the autopsy report is such a low level that it would have played no role in Martin's behavior, said Larry Kobilinsky, a professor of forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    I find this interesting in the autopsy report: "Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him in the chest. The male fell to the ground." IMO this says several things: Trayvon was standing when shot--not on the ground straddling Zimmerman and banging his head in the ground. The direction of the projectile being "directly from front to back" also supports Trayvon standing when shot.
    A ballistics expert would have said so if that were the case. The two would have to be level and struggling for the shot to be straight. An explanation could be that while Trayvon was beating Zimmerman, Zimmerman pulled out a gun and a struggle for the gun ensued. Also, the shot was fired at a very close range, again suggesting struggle. None of this supports that Trayvon was standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by duane View Post
    Taking Zimmerman's medical report at face value, I think what happened is that the two fought, Zimmerman got the worst of it, and when the two (who perhaps did momentarily fight on the ground) got to their feet, Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot Trayvon. If correct, definitely 2nd degree murder...not self-defense nor standing his ground.
    And yet that's not what the witnesses report seeing.
    Two police officers reported that when they arrived at the scene of the shooting, Zimmerman seemed to have a battered nose and bloodied face. One wrote that his "facial area was bloodied," and the back of his clothing was soiled with wet grass.

    "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head," Officer Ricardo Ayala wrote.

    Another officer wrote, "I saw that Zimmerman's face was bloodied and it appeared to me that his nose was broken."

    Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

    "He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

    A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.
    And with voice recognition, one should be able to definitively ID the voice screaming for help. Interestingly, the FBI analyst says they cannot ID the voice due to poor audio quality and high stress level. I guess the technology isn't as good as one would think.

    If Zimmerman got the worst of the fight, where is the evidence of the fight on Trayvon? The only other thing on the body was the bruised knuckle that was likely bruised when Trayvon broke Zimmerman's nose. Where did Zimmerman hit him and where is the evidence of that?

    This is IMO is what Zimmerman is guilty of:
    "The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement," an investigating officer wrote.
    Zimmerman says he got out of the car to look at the house number to give to the police even though he has been told to leave the scene by the 911 dispatcher. He should have left it alone. In his turn, Trayvon if perceived a man following him and in possession of his cell phone, should have dialed 911, not punched him in the nose.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-18-2012 at 04:38 AM.
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  5. #65

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    Nobody knows who threw the first punch and why. Only GZ knows what really happened, but IMO he cannot be trusted to tell the whole truth. He is protecting himself.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    You don't get to say whether the injuries were minor--the evaluating physician does.
    Many people don't even see a physician, thinking that their injuries are minor.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Marijuana is known to make people paranoid if they are having a bad trip.
    Zimmerman's behavior sounds more paranoid to me, since he chased down someone who was just walking down the street.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Did Trayvon know Zimmerman had a loaded gun? And picked a fight with a guy who was packing????

    Why didn't Trayvon call 911 to say that some strange guy is following him?
    From the reports that came out earlier, it sounded like he was talking to his girlfriend when he noticed that someone was following him. He mentioned it to her. They discussed it. He decided to walk instead of running. Everyone does not immediately hang up to call 911. Quite possibly TM did not know how dangerous the person following him was, or that he was carrying a gun. All he knew was that he was being followed. Everyone is not programmed to call 911 as soon as they feel scared. Some do, and some don't. You can't blame the victim but that's what you seem to be doing.

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    The was a study done, and it ststaed that people who carry guns tend to assume everyone else is as well. I would guess the opposite is true, too? It would never occur to me that anyone might be carrying a gun, because the concept is so foreign to me.

    So if there was a confrontation ( and I believe there was), Z probably thought T had a gun, and T probably thought Z didn't.

    And if there was a life and death struggle, and Trayvon had killed Z, would he have been given the same benefit of the doubt?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    From the reports that came out earlier, it sounded like he was talking to his girlfriend when he noticed that someone was following him. He mentioned it to her. They discussed it. He decided to walk instead of running. Everyone does not immediately hang up to call 911. Quite possibly TM did not know how dangerous the person following him was, or that he was carrying a gun. All he knew was that he was being followed. Everyone is not programmed to call 911 as soon as they feel scared. Some do, and some don't. You can't blame the victim but that's what you seem to be doing.
    OK. He didn't seem to be dangerous enough to call 911 but he seemed dangerous enough to start beating him up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Nobody knows who threw the first punch and why.
    Actually, one has an idea. No sign of a punch on Trayvon Martin whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessLeppard View Post
    The was a study done, and it ststaed that people who carry guns tend to assume everyone else is as well. I would guess the opposite is true, too? It would never occur to me that anyone might be carrying a gun, because the concept is so foreign to me.

    So if there was a confrontation ( and I believe there was), Z probably thought T had a gun, and T probably thought Z didn't.
    That makes sense but mostly, now that the witnesses came forward and the medical record is available, it seems that Trayvon was beating him up and Z's shot him. I wouldn't think Trayvon would have punched him in the nose if he thought Z had a gun.

    These are the questions I would like answered and probably never will:

    1) What exactly was Trayvon doing that looked suspicious to Z and warranted following him and calling 911? I am guessing nothing.
    2) Was there a verbal exchange prior to punch on the nose?
    3) And why the hell didn't Z leave the scene as instructed? Just do what the 911 operator says.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-18-2012 at 03:30 PM.
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Actually, one has an idea. No sign of a punch on Trayvon Martin whatsoever.
    This also suggests Zimmerman didn't even try to physically restrain Trayvon or use physical force to try to get away - he just shot him.

    Which goes back to my point earlier about two guys get into a fight at a bar. One guys throws a punch and the other shoots a gun. The guy with the gun gets off scott free now - but it didn't use to be that way before SYG.
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  12. #72
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    This article includes the whole quote from the police report that says that Zimmerman also could have identified himself and settled it with a conversation. That would indicate that the police did not have reason to believe he attempted to settle it civilly at all.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justic...tml?hpt=hp_bn1

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Actually, one has an idea. No sign of a punch on Trayvon Martin whatsoever.
    Actually, CBS reported this morning that "Diagrams [from the autopsy] also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye" so there were some signs that Trayvon also may have received a punch or two.
    These are the questions I would like answered and probably never will:
    1) What exactly was Trayvon doing that looked suspicious to Z and warranted following him and calling 911? I am guessing nothing
    Walking and talking on his cell phone, while wearing a hoodie seems to have been his "suspicious behavior."
    2) Was there a verbal exchange prior to punch on the nose?
    If you believe the statements by Trayvon's girl friend, there was a verbal exchange, although she said that she couldn't clearly hear all of it, just the beginning.
    3) And why the hell didn't Z leave the scene as instructed? Just do what the 911 operator says.
    Who knows -- he seems to have given himself the role of "neighborhood protector." Maybe his decision-making was impaired by drugs or alcohol? Something we will never know. While the autopsy revealed the presence of THC in Trayvon's system, no testing was done on Zimmerman the evening of the fatal shooting.
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  14. #74

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    Anyone who shoots someone "through the heart" is intending to kill.
    Is that what we believe a "neighborhood protector" should be doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    Maybe his decision-making was impaired by drugs or alcohol?
    I think more than anything, it was impaired by a loaded gun.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan5 View Post
    Actually, CBS reported this morning that "Diagrams [from the autopsy] also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye" so there were some signs that Trayvon also may have received a punch or two.
    Hmm. I read the autopsy report and didn't see these. Perhaps they were mentioned in a separate section. Do you have a link? Blood on his head could have been Zimmerman's or his own from the GSW.

    OK, I found it:
    Diagrams also note Martin had a blood spot on his head, a bruise on his eye, and small scarring on both hands, all suggesting he had been in a fight.
    What is a blood spot? Both hands are now bruised, so he did fight. The only thing that he had that sounded like Z landed a punch was the bruise on the eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Anyone who shoots someone "through the heart" is intending to kill.
    Is that what we believe a "neighborhood protector" should be doing?
    If one is a sharp shooter, perhaps, taking careful aim. As it is, Z was involved in a physical fight and hardly had a chance to consider the organ he wanted to penetrate.

    "I think I will go for the right...nah, the left ventricle...Trayvon, do you mind standing still for a sec and stop bashing my head, so I could aim?". Really?

    However, Zimmerman's behavior was in contradiction to the instructions of the 911 operator. Had he stayed put in his car/left the scene, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
    Last edited by IceAlisa; 05-18-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    OK. He didn't seem to be dangerous enough to call 911 but he seemed dangerous enough to start beating him up?

    Actually, one has an idea. No sign of a punch on Trayvon Martin whatsoever.
    That makes sense but mostly, now that the witnesses came forward and the medical record is available, it seems that Trayvon was beating him up and Z's shot him. I wouldn't think Trayvon would have punched him in the nose if he thought Z had a gun.

    These are the questions I would like answered and probably never will:

    1) What exactly was Trayvon doing that looked suspicious to Z and warranted following him and calling 911? I am guessing nothing.
    2) Was there a verbal exchange prior to punch on the nose?
    3) And why the hell didn't Z leave the scene as instructed? Just do what the 911 operator says.
    You don't KNOW that Trayvon STARTED beating up Zimmerman. You are making a lot of assumptions here. Nobody knows who started the fight, except GZ, and as I posted earlier, he does not come across as someone telling the truth. There are other instances where he did not tell the truth- for example, how much money he had was hidden from the judge and even his own attorney. With his life at stake in the courtroom, he is only telling portions that support his defense. Yet you seem to be so confident that Trayvon was at fault, and not the guy who killed him. OTOH your last 3 questions are objective. May be you are still expecting answers that support your theory that Trayvon caused his own death by beating up GZ and GZ was justified in killing TM?

    What bothers me about your posts is you are willing to give every benefit of doubt to Zimmerman but practically none to Trayvon.

  18. #78

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    Zimmerman's behavior was in contradiction to the instructions of the 911 operator. Had he stayed put in his car/left the scene, we wouldn't be talking about this right now.
    This fact should supercede the rest.
    The defense is trying to make sure it's forgotten.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    May be you are still expecting answers that support your theory that Trayvon caused his own death by beating up GZ and GZ was justified in killing TM?
    Oh so you can read my mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    What bothers me about your posts is you are willing to give every benefit of doubt to Zimmerman but practically none to Trayvon.
    Selective reading on your part. What benefit of doubt am I giving to Z that is not supported by evidence? He was beaten up (unless you believe these were self-inflicted). Trayvon, per autopsy had one bruise on his eye, so Z got him at least once as well.

    You are also missing (deliberately?) my questioning Z following Trayvon to begin with and creating a situation that could have been avoided by not following the instructions of the 911 operator.

    I think some people became married to the theory that Z shot Trayvon just walking down the street as it appeared in the beginning. Now that the details point to a somewhat more complicated situation, that theory no longer holds.

    I think we will not find out what exactly took place (a verbal exchange per T's girlfriend) prior to the fight and the shooting. I don't know how to fill in this blank--do you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    OK. He didn't seem to be dangerous enough to call 911 but he seemed dangerous enough to start beating him up?
    Not everyone calls 911 at the drop of a hat, nor does everyone have time too especially when confronted by a stranger. Trayvon may have been as big as an adult but he had the mind of a 17 year old kid not an adult who can think rationally yet.

    Trayvon was the one ‘standing his ground’ and got shot.

    Zimmerman is nothing but a bully with a gun.

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