Trayvon Martin - Thread #2

[MacMadame]

IMO it would be unethical for a lawyer to refuse to represent a guilty client and only represent ones they thought were innocent. The whole point of having a lawyer is to help you navigate through the system so you don't get screwed and get a just result. Guilty people deserve that as much as innocent people.

Now if the prosecution is so screwed up that they can't prove a guilty person is guilty, that really isn't the guilty person's lawyer's fault. That's on the prosecution for not doing their job.

[FigureSpins]

Why? So Spike Lee and Roseanne Barrcan tweet these people's home addresses? So that the New Black Panther Party can put out more illegal and criminal bounties for their execution?

I was thinking about NRA and right-wing PAC contribution campaigns. If someone's willing to throw $20 to GZ, they must be aligned with those groups' goals and therefore willing to support them.

I guess the people you mentioned would be interested, too.

So, what price would be fair for the list of PayPal contributors? $10k? $2 and a cup of coffee?

[IceAlisa]

Medical reports reveals Zimmerman had injuries consistent with the story: http://news.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclu...opstories.html

[skatesindreams]

When Zimmerman appeared on television as he was brought to the police station, he did not appear to have many of the injures indicated.

[PrincessLeppard]

I can see where maybe the bruising hadn't shown yet (I've never broken my nose, nor been punched in the face, so I don't know how quickly that materializes), but I still don't think those cuts on the back his head indicate "repeatedly being pounded into the pavement."

[Dragonlady]

Read my post again. I am talking about attorneys that KNEW the client was guilty and yet defended him. By your logic, the defendant is free to lie to the attorney, or tell the truth, but in either case it would be ethical for the attorney to defend him and tell lie in the court. I am talking about ethics and what is morally wrong, and not how the system works (IMO it sucks quite often).

Criminal lawyers MUST defend their clients, innocent or guilty. If criminal lawyers only represented the innocent, most would go broke. Everyone charged with an offense is entitled to representation, and such representation is a right regardless of whether or not they committed the offense with which they've been charged.

I know of no lawyer who refused to represent someone because they knew their client was guilty and it's beyond naive to think that a lawyer would refuse to represent a guilty client.

[IceAlisa]

but I still don't think those cuts on the back his head indicate "repeatedly being pounded into the pavement."

Do you have a lot of experience with the matter? Some sites are reporting that Trayvon's knuckles were bruised on autopsy. Didn't they say before that there was nothing but the GSW? This is rather confusing.

When Zimmerman appeared on television as he was brought to the police station, he did not appear to have many of the injures indicated.

The Daily Mail shows enhanced video grab courtesy of ABC with injuries present: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cuts-head.html Just scroll down a bit.

[julieann]

I still don't understand on whose side the laws are....Clearly Martin hit Zimmerman but he had it coming because Martin at that time must have been just as threatened by Zimmerman. I guess I struggle with, did Zimmerman feel justified with killing someone when he didn't see a gun on him, he could have just pushed him away. I think he elevated it to a level it didn't need to go and he started the whole thing.

[Anita18]

I can see where maybe the bruising hadn't shown yet (I've never broken my nose, nor been punched in the face, so I don't know how quickly that materializes), but I still don't think those cuts on the back his head indicate "repeatedly being pounded into the pavement."

I can imagine the jury pool in this case will have no scientists or doctors in it. My sister was just on a jury where they didn't have any doctors or scientists, because the crux of the defense's position was based on a scientific/medical claim. They didn't want any jurors with background knowlege on the matter, and to base their verdict only on information provided by the lawyers.

FWIW, it made her fairly disillusioned about the whole "finding out the truth" part about getting to a verdict. I'm not sure how I feel about it myself, when it comes down to choosing a jury which is coming in cold and will require a crash course in human metabolism or wound healing, what have you. But noooo, background knowledge could make us biased. Which I don't deny, but it's not the kind of personal bias that directly affects the case in front of them.

[IceAlisa]

I was doing jury duty on a rape case once. The defense attorney was hellbent on excluding anyone who knew what DNA evidence was. I was dismissed along with all medical professionals who were there.

[numbers123]

I still don't understand on whose side the laws are....Clearly Martin hit Zimmerman but he had it coming because Martin at that time must have been just as threatened by Zimmerman. I guess I struggle with, did Zimmerman feel justified with killing someone when he didn't see a gun on him, he could have just pushed him away. I think he elevated it to a level it didn't need to go and he started the whole thing.

I'm not seeing any evidence to this? Did I miss something? His records are from his private physician and he supposedly refused follow-up appointment with ENT? I would think that you might want to have as many physicians see you to document this if you had been involved in a potential legal situation.

[IceAlisa]

The medical report and the photos, numbers. Unless you believe that these were self-inflicted and/or the report was falsified.

[PrincessLeppard]

Do you have a lot of experience with the matter? Some sites are reporting that Trayvon's knuckles were bruised on autopsy. Didn't they say before that there was nothing but the GSW? This is rather confusing.

Thankfully, I do not, other than breaking up high school fights. However, if Trayvon's knuckles are bruised, then yes, I can believe he hit Zimmerman in the face, possibly in self-defense. But "repeatedly pounded into the pavement"? Nope.

[IceAlisa]

Thankfully, I do not, other than breaking up high school fights. However, if Trayvon's knuckles are bruised, then yes, I can believe he hit Zimmerman in the face, possibly in self-defense. But "repeatedly pounded into the pavement"? Nope.

Why not? How do you know exactly what injuries would result from that in a given individual? I personally do not.

His records are from his private physician and he supposedly refused follow-up appointment with ENT? I would think that you might want to have as many physicians see you to document this if you had been involved in a potential legal situation.

Are you saying that his refusal to f/u with ENT proves anything other that he refused to f/u with ENT? You are a nurse. You know how common patient non-compliance is, whether it makes sense or not, legally or otherwise.

[Anita18]

I was doing jury duty on a rape case once. The defense attorney was hellbent on excluding anyone who knew what DNA evidence was. I was dismissed along with all medical professionals who were there.

Yeah, that part of finding an "unbiased" jury is a little bit overblown in that respect, IMO. Scientists or medical professionals would be possibly biased against the evidence shown, NOT the defendant. Dismissing anyone who could have any prior background knowledge on the evidence ensures that the jury would pretty much HAVE to interpret the evidence the way the lawyers WANT you to interpret them. That's the part that bothered my sister. They only give you pieces of the evidence and then go, "Go into the jury room and find out the truth now!"

I was dismissed from a jury once because we were asked if it was all right if we weren't given all the evidence. I said no, because I'm a scientist and I always want to see everything. IIRC the case was about a possibly gang-related assault on a police officer with a skateboard. I was actually glad I was dismissed, because I didn't want to drive downtown at 9am anymore. But still!

[julieann]

I'm not seeing any evidence to this? Did I miss something? His records are from his private physician and he supposedly refused follow-up appointment with ENT? I would think that you might want to have as many physicians see you to document this if you had been involved in a potential legal situation.

Did he go to the Emergency Room? If he did, I must have missed the report, the first thing the cops ask you on the scene is if you would like medical attention, especially since one was already there.

If you believe his personal doctor's report (and I don't say I do) he did seem beat up, with the wound on his head, the broken nose, bruises. Trayvon was said by the coroner to have bruised knuckles, so there was a scuffle. But the question is when did Zimmerman get his bruises?

I would see many doctors but as soon as the injuries occur, especially since he wants everyone to believe that his life was in danger.

[numbers123]

The medical report and the photos, numbers. Unless you believe that these were self-inflicted and/or the report was falsified.

Not that I would be involved in an accidental murder or self defense killing with a gun, but if i were I would be asking for more than one physician/clinic to confirm that I had been injured, just to cover my bases.

And as a medical provider, you should know that one can falsify a medical record. Are there any insurance EOBs documenting the office visit or other typical documentation than an office medical record?

[IceAlisa]

Yes, of course one can falsify a medical record. But you are asking someone like Z to be reasonable and plan for being charged and tried and covering his bases after he shot Martin. Why?

I am sure this medical record will be scrutinized.

[DORISPULASKI]

You're kidding right?

Lord knows, FL is another world, but when you shoot someone, and they die, even in FL, you'd have to be either arrogant beyond belief or rather dumb not to think that there might be an investigation, and plan accordingly.

I can't say that I have the highest respect for medical examiners. It was the undertaker who pointed out to the medical examiner that multiple stab wounds was not a natural cause of death in my dad's case. The examiner didn't notice them. So a single medical opinion would not be enough for me, were I GZ.

[IceAlisa]

I don't know. I've never shot someone and so cannot speak to a person's state of mind and their planning/reasoning capabilities after such an event. A lot of people may come unglued. Or may be he is normally an unreasonable person. Hasn't any medical professional here released a patient AMA?

I recall having an ear infection and the ER doc recommended that I follow up with an ENT. I blew that off. And I never took the antibiotics he Rxed.

Trying to make a case of him as an indication of anything for not seeing another doc isn't going to fly. The medical record needs to be checked out and verified.