Calling flip and lutz jumps

[smarts1]

^ But that's how Brian enters all his flips. He even said in his interview that it was a flip. His lutz entrances are clearly different and has never used varied entrances for his lutz and flip jumps.

[Blair]

To me, I think the distinction is fairly clear. The setup doesn't necessarily pedicate the jump, but rolling over the edge is where there should be a penalty.

For instance, whether a lutz entrance is short or long, if the skater entered the jump from a choctaw and was on an outside edge from the moment of the setup move to the moment he/she leaves the ice, it should be scored as a lutz. If a skater wants to hang on a long back inside edge and omit the 3turn, the jump is still a flip (toeloops and flips don't necessarily need a 3turn or mohawk setup...i like to do them from back crossovers or lunges).

Assuming Joubert didn't roll over the outside edge on the choctaw to the jump takeoff, then it's clearly a lutz...regarless of how quick the entry was.

Contrastingly, Mao uses a more typical lutz entry but she (and many others) roll over the edge before takeoff, rightfully resulting in the edge call. Alena does a choctaw into her lutz (like Brian), but she rolls over to an inside (unlike Brian) and should get the penalty.

[Ozzisk8tr]

^ But that's how Brian enters all his flips. He even said in his interview that it was a flip. His lutz entrances are clearly different and has never used varied entrances for his lutz and flip jumps.

To jump is ultimately determined by the edge the blade is on when the skater leaves the ice. If they are on an outside edge it's a lutz, an inside is the flip. No matter what takeoff is done, it's all determined by the edge.

[hanca]

You mean people don't try it like that already?



Actually my brain thinks it would be relatively easy. Hmm. I may have to attempt this at training on Monday. Although it may be considered more difficult because the rotation from the 3-turn would have to be countered and completely finished before trying the counter-rotation for the jump. Hmm hmm.

If I break myself at training on Monday, I know who to blame

I don't know if people are trying it, but for me it would be the most awkward entrance. Left inside three turn is the worse one for me, the least controlled, because it rotates the less preferred way. Not impossible, but why do entrance that feels awkward when there may be hundreds of other ways to get into it? Why not for example do back left powel pulls and then when you are at back outside edge, just bend more, put toe in and jump.

[smarts1]

To jump is ultimately determined by the edge the blade is on when the skater leaves the ice. If they are on an outside edge it's a lutz, an inside is the flip. No matter what takeoff is done, it's all determined by the edge.

Well, we know Brian is a lipper...

[5Ali3]

To jump is ultimately determined by the edge the blade is on when the skater leaves the ice. If they are on an outside edge it's a lutz, an inside is the flip. No matter what takeoff is done, it's all determined by the edge.

Actually, that's not entirely true. The official List of Jumps specifies that a Lutz involves an outside edge takeoff and counter-rotation, while a flip involves an inside edge takeoff and natural-rotation. The problem arises, of course, when a skater executes a jump with an inside edge takeoff and counter-rotation, or an outside edge takeoff and natural-rotation. Traditionally, the jump has been identified by the nature of the rotation (counter/natural), with an improper edge being considered an error. I suspect the reason why the skating community considers the nature of the rotation to be more important than the takeoff edge is because the nature of the rotation differentiates the technique far more than the takeoff edge, and is considerably more difficult than the edge. (This also follows from figures: if you were competing figure 20A (RFO, LBO rocker) and changed edge on the rocker, you didn't receive a 0.0 for executing the wrong figure; you were considered to have made an error on the rocker by changing edge and your score was reduced accordingly.)

It's definitely possible to do a Lutz with perfect counter-rotation and an inside edge takeoff, usually because the free leg "picks" away from the body instead of behind the body (leaning forward on the BO edge and swinging the free leg too high seem to be part of this triad).

FWIW, the "official" description of a 1F is: bi! 1 Tbo and of a 1Lz: bo! 1 Cbo. [ ! means "pick take off"]

[shine]

I don't know if people are trying it, but for me it would be the most awkward entrance. Left inside three turn is the worse one for me, the least controlled, because it rotates the less preferred way. Not impossible, but why do entrance that feels awkward when there may be hundreds of other ways to get into it? Why not for example do back left powel pulls and then when you are at back outside edge, just bend more, put toe in and jump.

Exactly. And you need to start rotating in the opposite direction immediately for the jump, which has another counter rotation itself. That's probably the reason why we have never seen such an entrance into lutz from any skater (that I know of). Would love to see if it's possible though.

[hanca]

Would love to see if it's possible though.

If you ask nicely, I may spend six months to make it work! Or maybe rather not... (my natural lazyness and unwillingness to waste my time. It would be quicker to ask my coach to jump it for me.)

[briancoogaert]

IMO, jumps should be called as they really are. I mean, if an intended Lutz is on the inside edge, call it a Flip. Same for the Lip.
The problem would be about a jump on Flat : call it Lutz (e) or Flip (e).

[hanca]

IMO, jumps should be called as they really are. I mean, if an intended Lutz is on the inside edge, call it a Flip. Same for the Lip.
The problem would be about a jump on Flat : call it Lutz (e) or Flip (e).

Hung on, there is a difference between flip and Lutz. The fact that you changed edge in the last second does not make lutz flip. Lutz has a counterrotation before you jump; that makes it much harder jump. But if you cheat the edge, it doesn't suddenly turn into flip, because you have still done the counterrotation. So in theory, it is neither flip nor lutz if you want to be completely accurate. It's a hybrid!

[briancoogaert]

Hung on, there is a difference between flip and Lutz. The fact that you changed edge in the last second does not make lutz flip. Lutz has a counterrotation before you jump; that makes it much harder jump. But if you cheat the edge, it doesn't suddenly turn into flip, because you have still done the counterrotation. So in theory, it is neither flip nor lutz if you want to be completely accurate. It's a hybrid!

It's only the case if you switch to the other edge at the last moment. But for most skaters, the Flutz is just a Flip (Mao Asada or Alena Leonova, for example).

[shine]

If you ask nicely, I may spend six months to make it work! Or maybe rather not... (my natural lazyness and unwillingness to waste my time. It would be quicker to ask my coach to jump it for me.)

Go for it plzzzzzz

[Aussie Willy]

The jump has to be called on the intention. You do not call it on what actually happens. Doing a lutz of an inside edge is bad technique for that jump.

[Ziggy]

IMO, the setups for jumps DO matter, but I'd love to hear other opinions.

Yes, but it's not about the preceding movements (which are entirely up to the skaters' choosing).

On the lutz, you skate in the direction opposite to that of the rotation, on the flip you skate in the same direction as the rotation.

Even if a skater enters from a three-turn, there is a moment where you skate in the opposite direction.

That's what makes the difference crucial and the lutz much harder.

[Rock2]

Regardless of the rules I think there should be requirements that a lutz be preceded by a clear counter rotation prior to the takeoff on an outside edge.

If you are allowed to have the same entrance for a lutz and a flip and it's only the edge that matters then there is no case for an 'e' call; if you are on outside edge it's a lutz...inside edge it's a flip.
What's worse, in a case like that, if you do 3 jumps that end up coming off the same edge then I would make the last one worth 0. If you're boiling it down to the edge only then you just did 3 flips or lutzes and that is that. Perhaps the only e call could be that you had either no edge or not a clear enough edge although in the right direction. If you clearly flip over onto the wrong edge that should be an egregious error and penalized.

So, I prefer the clear distinction about the rotation into the jump so you are demonstrating clear intent of a certain jump. Based on the rotation into the jump you would either be credited properly or an 'e' could be properly applied. With this approach there is no justification for a '0' which is better for the skaters.

[gkelly]

Well, if the jump is immediately preceded by steps and turns, especially turns in both directions, and the final edge before the jump is very short, then the intention could be ambiguous and it would make sense to call the jump based entirely on the edge of the blade at takeoff.

However, if there's a sustained glide and at most one turn in the few seconds immediately preceding the jump, then there's plenty of time to establish counterrotation -- or not -- to establish the intention, in which case that's what should be called. With an edge call if the blade doesn't follow through on that intention all the way until takeoff.

[shine]

Regardless of the rules I think there should be requirements that a lutz be preceded by a clear counter rotation prior to the takeoff on an outside edge.

What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?

[Rock2]

What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?

In theory your question is valid...but these lutzes that come out of a traditional flip entrance have very little of either (edge or counter rotation) in my mind. They seem to rotate into the jump with perhaps only a slight crossover to the outside edge

So maybe I reword to "clear counter-rotation and outside edge" or something...

[Aussie Willy]

What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?

It is also the way the shoulders work. Skaters need to get a strong check in their shoulders in order to get on the outside edge.

[5Ali3]

What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?

[on preview: I'm not sure this is a great explanation, if you learn kinesthetically, as I do, it might be somewhat interesting, so I'm going to post it despite not being a great exercise. This is something that I used to do off-ice and will still occasionally do when really bored while waiting in line at the grocery store. There is significant variation in flip/Lutz technique and this is based on what I did, which resembles but may not replicate what I was taught so YMMV and someone else may have a different way to describe this.]

To expand on what AussieWilly said:
I'm going to pretend everyone who wants to try this at home would jump CCW; if you are inclined to be a CW jumper, just reverse L and R. For reference, straight in front of you is 12:00, 90 degrees to your right is 3:00, 180 degrees 6:00, etc.

Try this: stand with all of your weight on your left leg. Extend your right leg directly behind your right hip (realistically: 5:00); ideally, your right foot is about maybe six inches off the ground, but it's hard to hold that position when static, so touch the toes of your right foot to the ground, but try not to put much weight on them. Okay, if your shoulders are square, rotate your upper body - without moving your hips! - so that your left shoulder is in front of your core (11:00) and your right shoulder is behind your core (5:00), with your right arm kinda over your right leg (it's not that extreme, but it's the idea). Keep twisting L upper body and R upper body clockwise: aim for 1:00 and 6:00 with those arms! Keep twisting your upper body! Don't move your hips! You should feel tension in your shoulders and chest as you are twisting: tension in your hips as you struggle to keep them square-ish (remember! you're standing on your leg leg only!) and they want to rotate clockwise with your shoulders. But they don't get to rotate, just the upper body. As you're twisting, the arms can rotate further than the shoulders, curving CCW from the shoulder joint.

Okay, now stand on your left leg and extend your right leg behind you, same as before (square, no weight on your right leg even if you need to touch your right toes to the floor to stay balanced). Your left arm and shoulder should be in line about, oh, 11:00, right arm and shoulder about, maybe, 5:00? (I'm a bit less certain about this one, because I had a tendency to start rotating the upper body early, so on a double, my arms were usually about 10:00 and 4:00, and on a triple, 9:00 and 3:00. Note: I do not recommend this technique unless you prefer insanely hard falls to standing up: it's pretty much a recipe for failing to obtain the proper axis in the air, and the falls HURT because there's no chance to check the rotation with the shoulders rotated so far ahead of the hips. Please note that the fact that I know this does not mean that I was ever able to consistently change the technique... especially in competition. ) Back at the ranch, er, floor ice rink, your arm should extend essentially straight-forward from your shoulder joint, so about 90 degrees, unlike in the first exercise, when the arm rotated CCW from the joint. (To be more precise, in the second exercise, your upper arm is at a 90 degree angle from your shoulder joint; I curve my arm from the elbow to the wrist, so that my hand actually ends up at 12:00. On the first exercise, it probably ends up at 2:00 with my upper arm facing 11:00 and reaching towards 12:00. I actually don't know if curved lower arm versus straight lower arm would make a difference in technique.... I don't recall being taught to do that, but it "feels" like it would be better than a straight arm - but I don't know why.)

Think about trying to balance in this position: your goal is to keep your left arm in line with your left leg, definitely NOT rotated before 12:00, and your right arm approximately over your right leg but really a bit to the side of it. There should be tension in this position, but no tension between your lower and upper body, as they are attempting to be in line with each other. If you want to compare this to the first technique, from this lined-up position, twist your right shoulder towards 6:00 and your left shoulder towards 12:00 without moving your hips.

You can get a sense of the outside/inside edge by thinking - in the first exercise - about feeling your weight on the outer edge of your foot, and - in the second exercise - about feeling your weight on the inner edge of your foot.