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  1. #1
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    Calling flip and lutz jumps

    This season, there have been an awful lot of controversial flips and lutzes and I'm curious as to what people think a caller should look for when identifying a jump. When it comes to these two toe jumps, there are traditional entrance techniques that have become standard since the early days of the sport. For example, a three turn entrance just before picking in to a flip jump, or a long held back edge going into a lutz jump. Other skaters prefer a mohawk entrance, with a quicker entry into a flip, and a slight delay on a lutz.

    We saw Alena Leonova essentially doing three flips throughout the GP series, and (IMO) arbitrarily calling one of them a lutz. We saw Brian Joubert do a triple "lip" in the sp at Worlds and WTT that he simply put down as a "lutz" on his sheet. Hanyu's triple flip and lutz are indistinguishable to me.

    Do these techniques matter when it comes to classifying a jump, or is it simply the edge at the take-off point that defines a lutz from a flip? And if that is the case, wouldn't the "e" mark be irrelevant? In my mind, it should be clear long before the toe picks in what jump a skater is attempting. I also think that holding a back edge and having some degree of a BO edge before or during the toe pick DOES make a "flutz" more difficult than a regular flip.

    IMO, the setups for jumps DO matter, but I'd love to hear other opinions.

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    I agree completely agree that the set up matters. To me the difference between a flutz and a flip is the counter rotation. To a skater, they feel very different.

    If we look at Brian's lip, the blade changes edge at the last moment but there is no counter rotation. I would even say by the time he is on the outside edge, his weight has been transfered to the right foot. So that makes it a flip but with a change of edge. I believe Brian said he had planned to do a lutz in the SP but changed his mind half way through so it wasn't delibrately done to avoid the e.

    Leonova's flutz, on the other hand, is a flip to me. I know she does a choctaw entrance to the lutz but while the blade may be on the outside edge fo a split second, her upper body has already started rotating before she picks. I had never noticed Hanyu's jumps until you mentined him but he has similar entrances to Leonova- mowhawk for flip and choctaw for lutz. The big difference for me is the counter rotation makes it clear which jump he is attempting.

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    I think that set ups should matter but I also think that wobbly edges should be punished more
    The only lutz an flips that should be given full crest should be ones entered on CLEAR inside or outside edges.
    For example Mao has flips and lutzes that look exactly the same to me edgewise. She should get deductions for that. Same for other skaters who do the same.

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    Entrance should have no weight in my opinion. All that matters to me is the takeoff edge. Who's to say a person cannot do a lutz from a 3turn?? Or a flip from a long entry?? What Brian does in the SP is a lutz, and it should count as such. In the LP, his final jump combo is a lutz- 2axel, and should be called as such. If it results in too many lutzes, it should not count. This whole "intention" crap for the edge deduction is a stupid rule

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Entrance should have no weight in my opinion. All that matters to me is the takeoff edge. Who's to say a person cannot do a lutz from a 3turn?? Or a flip from a long entry?? What Brian does in the SP is a lutz, and it should count as such. In the LP, his final jump combo is a lutz- 2axel, and should be called as such. If it results in too many lutzes, it should not count. This whole "intention" crap for the edge deduction is a stupid rule

    Eta: and technical specialists should be allowed to slo-mo the entrance to confirm the edge

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Entrance should have no weight in my opinion. All that matters to me is the takeoff edge. Who's to say a person cannot do a lutz from a 3turn?? Or a flip from a long entry?? What Brian does in the SP is a lutz, and it should count as such. In the LP, his final jump combo is a lutz- 2axel, and should be called as such. If it results in too many lutzes, it should not count. This whole "intention" crap for the edge deduction is a stupid rule
    I disagree, but that's a valid opinion. But, if the edge is the only determining factor, how does a caller decide when to assign the "e" to a jump in this current state?

    Also, what about skaters who don't consistently flutz or lip, but occasionally do. If a skater does two lutzes, and then accidentally lips a flip (even though this mistake is not habitual) at the end of the program, should they receive no credit at all because of the Zayak rule?

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    No a new debate...I remember not liking all the similar flips of Stéphane some years ago, and being flamed for having said that Michelle was flutzing at a GPF.

    It seemed to me that up to a certain point, the 'planned element' sheet was the only way to decide if a skater was doing a flip or a Lutz...

    Was much surprised in Nice to see Brian's flip counted as Lutz in the SP... the skate-at-home bonus, leaving the impression that flip and Lutz would be undifferenciated in the future.
    For this particular jumps, from the entrance it's a flip, but Brian does an outside/outside turn, which is more difficult than the outside/inside one. His Lutz entrance is way different, but you can't base the idenfitication of jumps on the entrance, skaters may well change it with time.

    On one point it's not fair, especially for skaters who know how to do two different jumps, or (Joannie comes to my mind) that have worked especially on this matter to correct their technique.

    On the other hand in pairs Twist and throws are not differntiated.

    Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's more subtle.
    If it has to come the point of analysing the video to try to see if the skater's weight was already shifted because the change of edge is difficult to see... just as well forget the whole thing, callers don't have that extra time.
    I guess we will still see some 'e' from time to time, depending on who judges this matter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I disagree, but that's a valid opinion. But, if the edge is the only determining factor, how does a caller decide when to assign the "e" to a jump in this current state?

    Also, what about skaters who don't consistently flutz or lip, but occasionally do. If a skater does two lutzes, and then accidentally lips a flip (even though this mistake is not habitual) at the end of the program, should they receive no credit at all because of the Zayak rule?
    That's the point, this whole "e" idea makes no sense to me. I understand why it's there, but I think they should either review the takeoff edge, or make it only 1 jump, regardless of the edge (ala walley and toeloop).

    If a skater goes off the wrong edge accidentally, it sucks but technically they do end up doing the wrong jump and should be penalized for it. It's like when the best ice dancers accidentally do the choctaw on the wrong edge. It's not common but when it happens, the levels should reflect that

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    That's the point, this whole "e" idea makes no sense to me. I understand why it's there, but I think they should either review the takeoff edge, or make it only 1 jump, regardless of the edge (ala walley and toeloop).

    If a skater goes off the wrong edge accidentally, it sucks but technically they do end up doing the wrong jump and should be penalized for it. It's like when the best ice dancers accidentally do the choctaw on the wrong edge. It's not common but when it happens, the levels should reflect that
    I agree, and I think pretty much everyone does, that skaters need to be penalized for incorrect entries, but receiving 0 points for a jumping pass (in the situation I described above) seems a little extreme to me, especially since there is a lack of consistency when it comes to calling jumps.

    I understand that you disagree with the concept of the "e" but I was curious as to what you would do as a caller within these current guidelines? Would you give Brian's final 3-mystery jump+2A+SEQ an "e" or call it a lutz and Zayak him?

    Another issue is that there are many skaters (Kwan, Suzuki, Nakano, and Nagasu come to mind) who have taken off on what, to me, appeared to be a completely flat edge at one time or another. What should be done about that? Is it an invalid jump because it was not clearly on one edge or the other? Or does it merely deserve an "e" ??

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_T_T_ View Post
    I believe Brian said he had planned to do a lutz in the SP but changed his mind half way through so it wasn't delibrately done to avoid the e.
    I know he said that, but then the EXACT same thing happened at the WTT trophy weeks later...

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Entrance should have no weight in my opinion. All that matters to me is the takeoff edge. Who's to say a person cannot do a lutz from a 3turn??
    How do you do a lutz from a 3 turn?

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    How do you do a lutz from a 3 turn?
    Do a three turn from a forward inside to a back outside edge, then do the lutz.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Do a three turn from a forward inside to a back outside edge, then do the lutz.
    DUH!!!

    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I know he said that, but then the EXACT same thing happened at the WTT trophy weeks later...
    Which is why I think it was even more ridiculous that it was called as a lutz!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Eta: and technical specialists should be allowed to slo-mo the entrance to confirm the edge
    The rationale for no slow-mo on edge changes is that the vast majority of skaters change edge at some point: the rule is intended to give "benefit of the doubt" to skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatak View Post
    On the other hand in pairs Twist and throws are not differntiated.
    FTh and LzTh are differentiated. ISU First Aid for Pairs says, "These two throw jumps are considered as the same for the purpose of a Well Balanced Free Skating program." That does not mean that the throws are considered the same element: the well-balanced FS required state that the two throws must be of a different nature, and First Aid is stating that FTh and LzTh are of the same nature for the purpose of determining whether the team has executed two throws of the same or different nature. Translation: teams can't do both a FTh and a LzTh. Goal: encourage variety.

    For twists, it's a different story: the distinction between flip-twists and Lutz-twists is meaningless. I'm not sure why the flip-twist designation was even added a few years back, but essentially, most people call every twist either a flip or a Lutz, depending on the individual caller, and that's okay with the people who make the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Do a three turn from a forward inside to a back outside edge, then do the lutz.
    That seems really hard...

  16. #16
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    Why do people see Brian's flip in the SP as a lutz? It's clearly done from a mohawk, which is a flip-type entrance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Do a three turn from a forward inside to a back outside edge, then do the lutz.
    You mean people don't try it like that already?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5Ali3 View Post
    That seems really hard...
    Actually my brain thinks it would be relatively easy. Hmm. I may have to attempt this at training on Monday. Although it may be considered more difficult because the rotation from the 3-turn would have to be countered and completely finished before trying the counter-rotation for the jump. Hmm hmm.

    If I break myself at training on Monday, I know who to blame

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Why do people see Brian's flip in the SP as a lutz? It's clearly done from a mohawk, which is a flip-type entrance...
    Mohawk entry =/= flip.

    You could do a mohawk, roll onto the outside edge, and do a lutz, I would imagine. It would be tricky, but possible.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    That's the point, this whole "e" idea makes no sense to me. I understand why it's there, but I think they should either review the takeoff edge, or make it only 1 jump, regardless of the edge (ala walley and toeloop).

    If a skater goes off the wrong edge accidentally, it sucks but technically they do end up doing the wrong jump and should be penalized for it. It's like when the best ice dancers accidentally do the choctaw on the wrong edge. It's not common but when it happens, the levels should reflect that
    I agree with this on a technical standpoint, but people are already whinging that the ladies levels of difficulty has dropped.. i think this would result in seeing less variations of triple jumps... and maybe doubles to ensure the jump is at least counted for something.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Why do people see Brian's flip in the SP as a lutz? It's clearly done from a mohawk, which is a flip-type entrance...
    His mohawk is slightly choctaw-ish though, likewise there are a few skaters that do a rocker (bastardised version of one) before they flip, which makes it a lutz edge takeoff.
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


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