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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Of course not. But if my enjoyment in something has been ruined
    I'd cease my involvement in in, given the choice, and seek other pleasurable pursuits.
    LOL.... Oh really?!! I bet you'd like that.

    Like no one has ever complained about ANYTHING before on FSU before, let alone the skaters themselves. Like there's nothing EVER wrong with this sport, and they should all leave if they felt passionate enough to complain, then this forum would have nobody left, except maybe you?

    You must be taking some magic Japanfan 100% happiness pills!! I'd ask some, except I am worried about the side effects of ever only able to see the world in black and white when it is clearly full of beautiful colours and shades readily to be appreciate by anyone with an eye for it, in both the beauty and the ugly.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward.

    The only reason the Orser/Kim split got so much publicity is because they made their relationship very public in the first place.
    Can you give examples?

    I'm not seeing a pattern here: most of the post-war singles went pro and toured immediately after winning the OGM, and when they returned, they returned to their coaches -- Petrenko, Boitano -- and the ones that stayed in -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, Urmanov, Witt, Hughes remain(ed) with their coaches. Touring pros don't train full time in one place, and most coaches focus on their competitive skaters.

    For pairs and dance, it's a bit different, because until the early '90's, the Soviet Pairs and Dance teams were dominant, and the option of switching coaches and who paid what to whom was dictated by government agencies and policies.

    Moskvina had a deal with Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze to train them for a percentage of earnings, since there was still little support towards the end of the their competitive careers. I'm not sure if there was a professional rift between Totmianina and Vasiliev over money; they did end their personal relationship. I've never been able to follow the splits and movements of Soviet/Russian ice dance teams in the 80's and 90's, and have no idea if there was any dispute over money between Zazoui and Anissina/Peizerat.

    Christopher Dean was probably the only OGM who could argue validly that he was as responsible for T/D's success as their coach.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    The Glitterati, perhaps.
    Lol!! Where does all this Illuminati crap come from anyway? I've heard teens spouting off about it and now its come to FSU. Geez....

  4. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Can you give examples?

    I'm not seeing a pattern here: most of the post-war singles went pro and toured immediately after winning the OGM, and when they returned, they returned to their coaches -- Petrenko, Boitano -- and the ones that stayed in -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Lysacek, Urmanov, Witt, Hughes remain(ed) with their coaches. Touring pros don't train full time in one place, and most coaches focus on their competitive skaters.

    For pairs and dance, it's a bit different, because until the early '90's, the Soviet Pairs and Dance teams were dominant, and the option of switching coaches and who paid what to whom was dictated by government agencies and policies.

    Moskvina had a deal with Berezhnaia and Sikharulidze to train them for a percentage of earnings, since there was still little support towards the end of the their competitive careers. I'm not sure if there was a professional rift between Totmianina and Vasiliev over money; they did end their personal relationship. I've never been able to follow the splits and movements of Soviet/Russian ice dance teams in the 80's and 90's, and have no idea if there was any dispute over money between Zazoui and Anissina/Peizerat.

    Christopher Dean was probably the only OGM who could argue validly that he was as responsible for T/D's success as their coach.
    Hamil/Fassi went to court over whether he was entitled to a percentage of her earnings

    Hamilton/Laws - Hamilton worked on 3lutzes and 3axels after the Olys, but not with Laws

    Baiul/Smievskaya - Oksana accused her of keeping too much of her money. They were supposedly like mother/daughter when she was competing.

    Lipinski/Callaghan - the Lipinskis gave some unflattering interviews re: Callaghan and switched to Maurizi after the Olys. They claimed among other things that Callaghan wasn't supportive of Tara outside of her lessons.

    Hughes/Wagner - Hughes quit skating for a year or 2 shortly after the Olys and then came back to another coach, she never mentioned Wagner again in spite of all the loving fluff pieces. Rumor had it that she quit to get out of her contract with Wagner - she wasn't expecting to win Olympic gold or make a lot of money when she signed.

    I'm sure there are other reasons for the splits, but money is a big consideration. Athletes have relatively short careers and the opportunities to earn significant money are rare for both coaches and skaters.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by SueSue View Post
    Lol!! Where does all this Illuminati crap come from anyway? I've heard teens spouting off about it and now its come to FSU. Geez....
    http://vigilantcitizen.com/

    Tin foil hats ftw!

  6. #266
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    I missed the Hamill/Fassi lawsuit.

    Out of 61 post-war OGMs, you give 5 examples, of which only three -- Kim/Orser, Hamill/Fassi, and Baiul/Smievskaya -- were or appear to be about money or credit. The other three are conjecture at best and poor logic at the worst. From your own wording, it sounded like the Lipinskis wanted a coach to give their daughter more attention outside of the rink, which Callaghan wasn't interested in doing. The Hughes famously gave up opportunities for Hughes to make a lot more than she did from endorsements, so money wasn't their object.

    There have been many splits over the amount of attention parents and skaters feel their coaches give them and whether the coaches are willing to put up with the demands parents make. Coaches have been known to fire skaters when the demands get too great or annoying.

    You haven't made a case that "Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward."
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  7. #267

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    This thread is much more informative than I thought.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    That was followed by, in the summer of 2010 and weeks before the Orser-Kim split, JSF sending a group of Japanese junior skaters accompanied by the federation officials to the Cricket Club.
    including Kozuka

    http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9140/93764704.jpg (with Yeaji Yun at the cricket club, 2010-06-01)
    http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/9593/80609775.jpg (with Rippon, 2010 summer)

  9. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I missed the Hamill/Fassi lawsuit.

    Out of 61 post-war OGMs, you give 5 examples, of which only three -- Kim/Orser, Hamill/Fassi, and Baiul/Smievskaya -- were or appear to be about money or credit. The other three are conjecture at best and poor logic at the worst. From your own wording, it sounded like the Lipinskis wanted a coach to give their daughter more attention outside of the rink, which Callaghan wasn't interested in doing. The Hughes famously gave up opportunities for Hughes to make a lot more than she did from endorsements, so money wasn't their object.

    There have been many splits over the amount of attention parents and skaters feel their coaches give them and whether the coaches are willing to put up with the demands parents make. Coaches have been known to fire skaters when the demands get too great or annoying.

    You haven't made a case that "Olympic gold medalists more often than not split from their coaches after they win. There are often hard feelings because the coaches feel they deserve a share of the skater's future earnings and the

    skaters don't. When they are working toward a common goal all is lovey-dovey. Once they reach the goal they disagree over who did the work and who deserves the reward."
    Mrs. Lipinski stated that SHE took care of Tara's needs outside of lesson time, and that Maurizi made lessons "fun" for Tara not Callaghan. She also stated that it was demoralizing for Tara when she saw the relationship other skaters had with their coach. If that isn't taking credit away from the coach, I don't
    know what is. Callaghan for his part said he gave her the same attention as his other students.

    Anyway, this is off topic. I'm not going blow by blow through every post- war skater/coach relationship. There wasn't always a lot of money or glory in skating, and I doubt the Soviet skaters had any choice in coaching relationships.

    My observation has been that with elite skaters and coaches there is a lot of ego involved on both sides and the OGM is the ultimate prize. Each side will put up with a lot to reach that goal, but once they do, the dissatisfactions
    often come out. Skaters often compare leaving an elite coach to getting a divorce.

    Whether you agree or not, that is my opinion.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    My observation has been that with elite skaters and coaches there is a lot of ego involved on both sides and the OGM is the ultimate prize. Each side will put up with a lot to reach that goal, but once they do, the dissatisfactions
    often come out. Skaters often compare leaving an elite coach to getting a divorce.


    thiWhether you agree or not, that is my opinion.
    But I wasn't disagreeing with this. I was asking you to substantiate your blanket statement about money., which you can't.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  11. #271

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    If "more often than not" part in aliceane's statement is altered with a phrase like "some times" or "there are some cases," I think it is a legitimate argument which I can totally agree with.

    Thanks for the great posts kwanfan1818 and aliceane.

  12. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    If "more often than not" part in aliceane's statement is altered with a phrase like "some times" or "there are some cases," I think it is a legitimate argument which I can totally agree with.

    Thanks for the great posts kwanfan1818 and aliceane.
    You are correct, I should have qualified it differently. I also regretted posting it afterwards as I didn't want to draw the thread away from Hanyu. Plus many of the splits have been analyzed to death and no one but those directly involved will ever know for sure. While I don't believe in conspiracy theories as deeply as OS168, I do agree that elite skating is a business.

  13. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    You are correct, I should have qualified it differently. I also regretted posting it afterwards as I didn't want to draw the thread away from Hanyu. Plus many of the splits have been analyzed to death and no one but those directly involved will ever know for sure. While I don't believe in conspiracy theories as deeply as OS168, I do agree that elite skating is a business.
    Sorry, but how can one believe it is a business yet chose not to believe in common tactics frequently used in businesses? What is the difference between smart subversive tactics vs conspiracy?

    People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'. When the arrangements and reasons are more simple, and the word conspiracy/strategy/collaboration are hardly different. I personally think what happened has less to do than to do with personal feelings and egos between coach and student but more about rivaled nations interests mixed with business opportunities driven by profit.

    What I have seen is Yuna has been trying to set up a stable for Korean skaters for the future of Korean skating by keep shipping Korean skaters to the cricket club likely at her own considerable expense, but a practical minded coach must have realised the amount of work and effort and importantly the 'unlikely hood' he will able to get a second gold following that approach so he have kept some back doors open and when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract. It is just a practical business matter from all parties, particularly JSF who pretty much finished rival nation's interest in one shot. All these talk about personal feelings and egos are really by product of these conflicting business interests, easily manipulated by media savvy organisation who are very good at manipulating results and public awareness to a favorable outcome.

    On some level, we would all like to think the best of people, but in the real world, rivalry is real in sport and in businesses. Profit are gained by the ones who can make it happen. The smart and the ruthless are the ones who survives and wins.

  14. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'.
    That's because your "analysis" has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

  15. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Skatefan View Post
    That's because your "analysis" has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.


    Well average slice of Swiss cheese in Marks and Spensors you get maximum 2 or 3 holes. I am not sure about in the States... but 2 or 3 holes? yup i can live with that.

    http://organizeyourstuffnow.com/word...s-2011-059.jpg

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Sorry, but how can one believe it is a business yet chose not to believe in common tactics frequently used in businesses? What is the difference between smart subversive tactics vs conspiracy?

    People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'. When the arrangements and reasons are more simple, and the word conspiracy/strategy/collaboration are hardly different. I personally think what happened has less to do than to do with personal feelings and egos between coach and student but more about rivaled nations interests mixed with business opportunities driven by profit.

    What I have seen is Yuna has been trying to set up a stable for Korean skaters for the future of Korean skating by keep shipping Korean skaters to the cricket club likely at her own considerable expense, but a practical minded coach must have realised the amount of work and effort and importantly the 'unlikely hood' he will able to get a second gold following that approach so he have kept some back doors open and when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract. It is just a practical business matter from all parties, particularly JSF who pretty much finished rival nation's interest in one shot. All these talk about personal feelings and egos are really by product of these conflicting business interests, easily manipulated by media savvy organisation who are very good at manipulating results and public awareness to a favorable outcome.

    On some level, we would all like to think the best of people, but in the real world, rivalry is real in sport and in businesses. Profit are gained by the ones who can make it happen. The smart and the ruthless are the ones who survives and wins.
    Really, now?

  17. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post


    Well average slice of Swiss cheese in Marks and Spensors you get maximum 2 or 3 holes. I am not sure about in the States... but 2 or 3 holes? yup i can live with that.
    Maybe, but the holes are pretty big.

  18. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract
    Please go and take a look at IMG's website, which you obviously haven't done because it would blow even bigger holes in your ridiculous conspiracy theory. Orser's contract with them is as a speaker . Unless his speeches include secret subliminal messages to Japanese skaters to come to his rink, and/or secret subliminal messages to Korean skaters to fall down a lot, that hardly supports anything you are saying about this "persuasive agency".
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Please go and take a look at IMG's website, which you obviously haven't done because it would blow even bigger holes in your ridiculous conspiracy theory. Orser's contract with them is as a speaker . Unless his speeches include secret subliminal messages to Japanese skaters to come to his rink, and/or secret subliminal messages to Korean skaters to fall down a lot, that hardly supports anything you are saying about this "persuasive agency".
    LOL... yeah right, because that is what Orser excel at... as a speaker. And how much is 10% of his speaker fee a year justify signing him? They'd lucky to get $1000-$3000 a year based on 'speaking roles' according to your theory. How much does create a contract cost for lawyer's fee again?

    Clearly you have no idea how business works, or why they kept sending him exclusively IMG client students.

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