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  1. #201
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    Overedge, I just have to say I love your quote by Beavis, its so appropriate....

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepypanda View Post
    IFS's fb page says it heard Hanyu is arriving in Toronto tomorrow. Not sure where the info is coming from, but I hope we hear something soon!

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Inter...g/278550292537
    Hanyu's May 6 press conference(Japan) was cancelled?
    And he is now in Toronto?

  3. #203

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    I wonder what happened with the press conference. Perhaps (hopefully) Hanyu isn't being sure himself? It would seem Hanyu want to take his time to experience Toronto first and see how the chemistry goes with Orser. Very sensible to try before you buy, good for him.

    RE: Overedge

    If you have read my posts correctly, you'd see the percentages and the 'extra chargeable services' I am referring to comes from the BUYER or the SPONSOR of talent's services, not the talents themselves. I have outlined different ways agency can make their money, and the rate are likely to be structured in accordance to the level of products and services and earning potentials including bespoke services. It is a bit simplistic to focus only on the percentage alone without considering if it is a buy or sell, or maybe it is a lucrative endorsement deal that may take a year to work on which the agency is likely to demand more due to the fact it takes great deal of work and time involved, and the high risk of deals falling through (when they do, all time is wasted, nothing is earned). IMO, it is VERY unlikely the agency can profit PURELY based on the flat capped 10% rate you are suggesting and survives based on winnings, earning and sponsorship deals. Figure skating has a tiny scale of business compares to those of Hollywood showbiz - Where CAA did big business rely on even smaller % than 10 in the 90s.

    For the sake of argument however, let's assuming everything you said is correct, and my theories is completely wrong. When in doubt, just follow the money. Assume an agency like IMG were able to represent 100% of all skaters among ALL major ISU competitors in the whole world. In singles, pairs, and ice dancing. In other words they have 100% market share and no other competition.

    Here's an approx breakdown of all the prize money for 2008/2009 season (Seniors) for the 3 Major ISU skating competitions according to this Wiki and this link

    http://925.nl/images/2012-01/1509-pr...ships-2009.pdf

    Prize in US dollars, K = 1,000.

    Grand prix series$272k
    Winner $25k (Couples split)
    (Top 6 get prize money)

    World Championship $ 710k
    Winner Singles $45k, Pairs/Ice Dancing $67.5k,
    (Top 12 get prize money)

    Four Continents $250k
    Winner get $22.5k
    (Top 12 get prize money)

    That makes the entire pool of prize money for the 3 major ISU competitions stands at $1.23million. (I didn't bother count the European championships since IMG primarily represent Japanese skaters and US skaters according to their website.)

    By charging flat rate of 10% with no extra fees or subsidies, the maximum they can hope to earn from skaters's winning is maximum $123k from 100% market representation. How much is there left after deducting the running cost of an agency at some of the most expensive cities in the world (New York, Tokyo for figure skating to start with?) when there are the other costs to consider: Client Entertainment Cost, Management cost, Transport cost, Accounting Cost, Operation Cost, PR/ Media, Employee salary and bonus (New York, Japan, Europe), Utility costs, Taxes. What about federation's cut? Are these 10% before or after their cut? (I doubt 123k would even cover the entertainment costs, let alone a sport agents' salary.)

    Now let's simplify this model further by give this agency even better advantages. Let's assume the agency ONLY represent the prize winners as clients, so no operation budget are wasted looking after those who do not perform other than the top 12 winning skaters. That makes minimum 24 prize winners in singles: 12 in men, 12 in women; then 12 in pairs, 12 in dance. That is 48 client accounts, and 96 people in their talent books. 96 groups of logistics from approximately 7/8/9 countries where the sport agency need to manage and follow up with federation, coaches, choreographers, costumes, music edit, physio/health, ice shows, public appearances, endorsement deals/sponsorships and other skater business relations, PR. Just how big of a team do you think it would takes to manage an operations of this size full time to gain maximum from winnings? Or even maybe half of its size? Or even quarter its size? How many people should IMG put their employees in this sport when the maximum they can hope to earn from them winning is 123k?

    There are other minor competitions of course, nationals, exhibition competition (world team trophy for example)... but even if the prize doubled or even tripled the maximum 100% winning amount, it still wouldn't cover the basic running costs, let alone profit. Now consider this 100% market share does not exist, when there are skaters like Patrick Chan, Yuna Kim, Alissa Czisny, and the European/Russian Skaters that are not represented by an agency like IMG who regularly occupies substantial chunk of the prize money for themselves out of the maximum $123k potential pot money that can be gained. Then you should have got a rough idea of how much An Agency can realistically earn from winnings. And actually looking at the list of their clients, IMG primarily represent US and Japan only, so this shrunk the pool of prize money even further.

    Clearly, the above shows there's literally NO MONEY can be earned winning alone. So how do agents REALLY profit? Sponsorship and Ice show alone are enough to cover it? In this climate, and the dwindling audiences in North America and bad economy? You sure?

    Take the ice shows, just how much income can they generate per skater? A few hundred dollars per a few big events per year is hardly going to cover a skater's entire year of management cost? Say a skater skate for shows 10 shows $1000 a day, That means the agency only stand to earn $1000 dollars per candidate max per year. How long do you think it takes to organise a talent to travel on a shows and manage their schedules, transport, insurance, board, billings from start to finish per show? I estimate 3-4 hours from start to finish after emails phone calls, managing paper work then accounting, that means sport agents stand to only bill approx $25-33.3 per hour in New York time before tax and expenses? Is this feasible?

    How about sponsorships? Although theoretically there's no ceiling to the amount of sponsorship one can get, but just how many commercially viable stars in this sport can really command these big deals belong to the agency? If there's only 10% flat fee derived purely from earnings, then it would appear 90% of all their profit comes from their no.1 talent/candidate who earn 10million in sponsorships per year. If then the agency can then stand to earn $1 million from represent this client alone. Is it then really inconceivable then the agency will do what it can to protect this client, include some form of retaliation against her rival, including sabotage or revenge for its own business survival? I don't know the answer, although I have my suspicions....I am a freak afterall!

    How about federation funds? Maybe that is the most critical question? Who has the power to buy their way to maximise their OGM chances? Who wants to buy an OGM? Well... the likely hood is probably EVERYBODY!!! Whether they can afford one, or has the means to get it is another matter.

    Interesting enough, The total prize money for World Team Trophy is $1,000,000.

    A MILLION DOLLARS!!! Who fund this money?? In a way, it is the best sort of sport competition, where everybody wins as long as you take part.
    1st place $200k
    2nd place $170k
    3rd place $160k
    4th place $150k
    5th place $150k
    6th place $130k

    Not bad for showing up and stand there. The last place get better deal than coming 4th at world championship (assume they are 1/10th of a team, the less team member the more for them.)

    We have often discussed figure skating is a political sport, but in truth, political influence can not exist in a vacuum without these influences to be carried out by someone. Just who do you think carry out these influences? Who are the ones who can financially reaps reward off the sports behind the scenes while the hard working skaters are killing themselves going after those precious fabulous gold medals? And even if they succeed it is still not enough to cover their training? e.g Patrick Chan?

    The reality of the world of sport meeting big business can be harsh and cruel, but 'money' is a universal language that is easily understood better than 'English'. IMO the facilitators of this sport certainly include the big monopolised sport agency who can play roles of the negotiator, deal breaker, escrow agent, they are the buffer to protect the talents from uglies behind the scenes the movers and shakers. They are the constant gardener that tends to the 'weeds' to landscape their perfect garden so their 'clients and associates' can readily reap the fruits of their labour.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    From the PSA website:
    This makes it pretty clear that a third party, like an agency, contacting a coach to tell them that a skater is going to come to them *is* solicitation. Not to mention that it would most certainly be unethical for an agency to tell a skater who their coach is going to be, because that would interfere with the skater's ability to work with the coach of their choice. And there is no reason to label this "US regulations", because coaches all around the world are professionals and should be treated like professionals.
    Perhaps you'd care to remind that to IMG/Orser. Orser showed the following email he wrote to his formal pupil word for word:

    "I am sure you have heard some of the rumours that have been going around Mao. I just want you to know that I am loyal to you and am always here for you. Her agency did inquire about me (and team) working with her, I told them you are my first priority. I have to say I was flattered she has an interest, but your skating comes first"

    He then went on Canadian TV saying no offer has been made from anyone from Mao's side. Then JSF also came out strongly denying this. 2 seasons later he is teaching the next golden child of JSF. Who's the unethical one here?

    -----------

    The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance. - Confucious.
    Last edited by os168; 05-09-2012 at 02:43 PM.

  4. #204

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    Take the ice shows, just how much income can they generate per skater? A few hundred dollars per a few big events per year is hardly going to cover a skater's entire year of management cost? Say a skater skate for shows 10 shows $1000 a day,
    Obviously you like to entertain yourself by writing long posts. You are not correct in most of your assumptions and your assumptions about what a skater can earn from commercially produced ice shows are way, way off. If you knew the first thing about the business (where the money comes from and how) this might be an interesting discussion.

  5. #205
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    os168, I think it may be time to remove your tinfoil hat.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    os168, I think it may be time to remove your tinfoil hat.
    I know that you don't have this luxury as an admin, but Ignore has certainly been my friend in this situation (except where quotes appear, and then and ).
    "Skating fans are not a patient bunch." Dragonlady

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    Obviously you like to entertain yourself by writing long posts. You are not correct in most of your assumptions and your assumptions about what a skater can earn from commercially produced ice shows are way, way off. If you knew the first thing about the business (where the money comes from and how) this might be an interesting discussion.
    It is an approximate guess based on means of average competitive skater, not the very top nor a pro. Even if they command 10 times the amount, the stats still doesn't work out imo. I welcome you to make another thread on this though with some facts to support it (other than i am right you are wrong type of argument), since i am curious of this myself.


    Re: Allezfred

    Message received , Tin foil in the bin.
    Last edited by os168; 05-09-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    RE: Overedge
    Come back and discuss this when you have some facts that actually have some relationship to how ice shows are organized and how much skaters get paid in them. And maybe learn a little about how talent agencies work while you are at it.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Come back and discuss this when you have some facts that actually have some relationship to how ice shows are organized and how much skaters get paid in them. And maybe learn a little about how talent agencies work while you are at it.
    Right...so after I broken down what little earning can be gained from winnings or likely of sponsorship deals. You are still insisting 10% flat rate is enough to cover from doing ice shows, because 'ALL' competitive's skaters like Hanyu or Rippon get the same rate as the PRO STARS who earned their medals before doing shows full time.

    It might be better for you learn some business common sense to know when the money doesn't add up beyond making derogatory blanket statements with nothing to support it. Btw just want to be clear, we are talking about sport agencies not talent agencies.

  10. #210

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    Btw just want to be clear, we are talking about sport agencies not talent agencies.
    Sorry - each time someone corrects you (and you said you wanted your assumptions to be challenged if they were wrong) you shift your assumptions - you were yelling about IMG and now it's just sports agencies? Those hardly exist - most ice skaters (and other sports talent like tennis, golf, basketball, soccer players, etc.) are signed with talent agencies but in their sports divisions. You just keep shifting your assumptions and arguments sideways - it doesn't work.

    You don't have a basic understanding of the amounts of money involved or how agencies (of any description) work, and people are allowed to point that out. We don't have to open another thread nor are we obligated educate you (we might want to discuss, yes, if one could sustain an actual conversation with you) - if you are still "curious" and don't have the information, how can you pontificate on the subject? I just don't get it but that's me.
    Last edited by Willowway; 05-10-2012 at 01:19 AM.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Right...so after I broken down what little earning can be gained from winnings or likely of sponsorship deals. You are still insisting 10% flat rate is enough to cover from doing ice shows, because 'ALL' competitive's skaters like Hanyu or Rippon get the same rate as the PRO STARS who earned their medals before doing shows full time.
    I said nothing about what skaters earn relative to each other, which clearly you are clueless about by even suggesting that $1000 a day is what any skater would accept for doing a show.

    It might be better for you learn some business common sense to know when the money doesn't add up beyond making derogatory blanket statements with nothing to support it. Btw just want to be clear, we are talking about sport agencies not talent agencies.
    A sports agency is no different from a talent agency. They represent their clients and get paid work for them, and take a percentage of their earnings. If you don't understand that basic principle, then the rest of your argument is even more ridiculous than it already is.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

  12. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    Sorry - each time someone corrects you (and you said you wanted your assumptions to be challenged if they were wrong) you shift your assumptions - you were yelling about IMG and now it's just sports agencies? Those hardly exist - most ice skaters (and other sports talent like tennis, golf, basketball, soccer players, etc.) are signed with talent agencies but in their sports divisions. You just keep shifting your assumptions and arguments sideways - it doesn't work.

    You've broken down what you think the numbers are, not what the numbers might actually be. Analyzing wildly inaccurate data doesn't make that data right or the results valid.

    You don't have a basic understanding of the numbers involved or how agencies work, and people are allowed to point that out.
    Not really, I am trying to framing an argument, a point of view that is why i pick simplest numbers. The data can be changed anytime. I dig what I can find, the rest are suppositions.

    So what numbers should we be talking it out... let's work it out. I use the term 'talent' to describe what is traditionally referred as 'players' in sporting terms, which might have caused some confusion I admit. I picked a random easy number based on how much approx Rippon / Hanyu could be getting at local exhibition show. Obviously their rate at a top international show could be a lot more, since there are bigger budget for those type of shows than the local county hall variety. As mentioned, even if you multiply that estimate number $1000x10 it still won't be a feasible business to support their whole year of management. The 10% flat rate might work for PROs circuit for a bonafide star since there are literally NO COSTs involved looking after these star unlike competitive skaters.

    You are incorrect, IMG is a sport agency. Read its history. CAA however, started as a show biz agency then also sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post

    A sports agency is no different from a talent agency. They represent their clients and get paid work for them, and take a percentage of their earnings. If you don't understand that basic principle, then the rest of your argument is even more ridiculous than it already is.
    LOL... you really think there's no difference? Try to tell to the thousands of grads who's studying for degrees in sports management. If you do a little research and ask around you'd likely to find endorsement deals are no way capped at 10%, and that shockingly, different agencies may adapt different business models therefore likely to have different preferential rates. Why? Because there's no law that says you can't unlike talent agencies in California therefore set the benchmark. Until some governance body decide to put their foot down ti cap the rate, they can theoretically charge what ever they want, as long as someone is willing to pay. The rates are likely entirely at agency' own discretion and can vary from sport market to sport market, agency to agency, states to states, country to country. What an eye opener heh?

    Here's an interesting paper for all those who are interested to knows the ins and outs sport agents and the ethical dilemmas they frequently faces.

    http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcon...opher_zinchiak

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    You are incorrect, IMG is a sport agency. Read its history. CAA however, started as a show biz agency then also sport.
    IMG has many clients that have nothing to do with sports. Have you even bothered to look at their website?


    LOL... you really think there's no difference? Try to tell to the thousands of grads who's studying for degrees in sports management. If you do a little research and ask around you'd likely to find endorsement deals are no way capped at 10%, and that shockingly, different agencies may adapt different business models therefore likely to have different preferential rates.
    You can't even make sense of your own arguments. An athlete signing to endorse a product is a very different business deal from an athlete signing a percentage deal for agency representation. If you knew as much as you claim to know about the industry, you would know the difference.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    I said nothing about what skaters earn relative to each other, which clearly you are clueless about by even suggesting that $1000 a day is what any skater would accept for doing a show.
    Do you know what the pay rate/range for shows is? (Just curious)

  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Perhaps you'd care to remind that to IMG/Orser. Orser showed the following email he wrote to his formal pupil word for word:

    "I am sure you have heard some of the rumours that have been going around Mao. I just want you to know that I am loyal to you and am always here for you. Her agency did inquire about me (and team) working with her, I told them you are my first priority. I have to say I was flattered she has an interest, but your skating comes first"

    He then went on Canadian TV saying no offer has been made from anyone from Mao's side. Then JSF also came out strongly denying this. 2 seasons later he is teaching the next golden child of JSF. Who's the unethical one here?
    .
    Huh? So Orser is unethical because he's going to coach Hanyu?

  16. #216

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    os168 could have saved a lot of our time by just saying that he/she doesn't like Orser and never will. We get it, now can we please move on.

  17. #217

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    os168 could have saved a lot of our time by just saying that he/she doesn't like Orser and never will.
    Thank you!

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    os168 could have saved a lot of our time by just saying that he/she doesn't like Orser and never will. We get it, now can we please move on.
    Sigh... incorrect...

    It is more like i don't like greedy meddling agents and bureaucrats who likes to manipulate the playbook and continues to put talents in jeopardy (public face of the sport who has became pawns in these corporate reshuffle games). Including ongoing attempt to influence results that has nothing to do with what goes on the ice. Yes it does ruin my enjoyment of the sport, which I'd like to think is based on fairplay.

    The sport should be simpler. Those who is the best on the day wins! They should be financially rewarded better as well, much than they do now, not the greedy agents.

    An average sport agent in New York's hourly billing is around $400 an hour not unlike a lawyer. You look at the photo I took from the WC Moscow to see the scale of business they have to do with this sport. I have also proven why 10% earning from a competitive skater alone wouldn't make their business worth which would indicate they are likely to be able to get additional funding likely from federations, or exploit the market by offering bespoke services to whoever want to buy. Think what the sport would be like if that money that goes to these sport agencies should go to the prize money instead? It would make all the skaters less dependable on their federation and less dependable on the agencies. That is the dichotomy facing the skaters today, they are basically trapped.

    For the record and I want this to be clear. Orser will always be a legend of this sport. He is a great skater, and likely a great coach who just need a little time to prove himself. If he is moved to Japan, it might work out better for Hanyu, for now for Hanyu's sake, I just don't want him to ends up another victim in someone else's game when it can potentially hurt his skating and health.
    Last edited by os168; 05-11-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  19. #219
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    Yeah...So...um... cant wait to see Hanyu next season...lol

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I have also proven why 10% earning from a competitive skater alone wouldn't make their business worth
    No, you haven't.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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