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  1. #81

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    I think Brian isn't necessarily good at teaching jumps or basics, but is very good at taking skaters who already have the technical goods and packaging them and peaking them well for competitions. I think he can turn already good skaters into champions but isn't a "from the ground up" coach. That in no way means he's a bad coach; one is just as difficult as the other IMO. Simply he's more suited to skaters that are already elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triple_toe View Post
    I think Brian isn't necessarily good at teaching jumps or basics, but is very good at taking skaters who already have the technical goods and packaging them and peaking them well for competitions. I think he can turn already good skaters into champions but isn't a "from the ground up" coach. That in no way means he's a bad coach; one is just as difficult as the other IMO. Simply he's more suited to skaters that are already elite.
    Agreed, which is why I think Orser - Gao is not the best match.

    He seems to be better at camouflaging weaknesses than fixing them. Most of his other students can skate clean with a beautiful package and medal, but not Gao.

    Orser - Hanyu can be a good match because Hanyu already has most of what it takes to be the next best thing. But he is going to be facing a bitch of a commute. I hope he is disciplined enough to train on his own while in Japan. (or is his old coach going to look after him still while he is in Japan?) When does he finish highschool? Perhaps he can train full time in Canada after he finishes highschool?

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    Quote Originally Posted by triple_toe View Post
    I think Brian isn't necessarily good at teaching jumps or basics, but is very good at taking skaters who already have the technical goods and packaging them and peaking them well for competitions. I think he can turn already good skaters into champions but isn't a "from the ground up" coach. That in no way means he's a bad coach; one is just as difficult as the other IMO. Simply he's more suited to skaters that are already elite.
    I have heard that Brian puts on seminars for young skaters and also has many young skaters that he works with. One of my friends who coaches at the same rink said Brian took on a young skater who didn't even have double jumps two years ago, and she is now training triple axels. I don't know many coaches who in two years can take someone thru their doubles, triples and to a jump that many females would never even try let alone do. Are you all sure you know what you are talking about?

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Agreed, which is why I think Orser - Gao is not the best match.

    He seems to be better at camouflaging weaknesses than fixing them. Most of his other students can skate clean with a beautiful package and medal, but not Gao.

    Orser - Hanyu can be a good match because Hanyu already has most of what it takes to be the next best thing. But he is going to be facing a bitch of a commute. I hope he is disciplined enough to train on his own while in Japan. (or is his old coach going to look after him still while he is in Japan?) When does he finish highschool? Perhaps he can train full time in Canada after he finishes highschool?
    I'm thinking too that he may switch to Orser full time once high school is up but this gives him an opportunity to try him out now before the Olympic Season.

    As for Orser not being a ground up coach..I don't know how anyone can say he can't develop young talent. Orser has just started talent, and developing a young Hanyu/ Plushenko /Kim takes years and years. And there's also the issue of finding that talent.

  5. #85

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    Yuzuru just started his senior year in high school in April, and will graduate from high school in March, 2013.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    One of my friends who coaches at the same rink said Brian took on a young skater who didn't even have double jumps two years ago, and she is now training triple axels. I don't know many coaches who in two years can take someone thru their doubles, triples and to a jump that many females would never even try let alone do. Are you all sure you know what you are talking about?
    I'm sorry but this is extremely hard to believe. So unless any proof can be provided...

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I'm sorry but this is extremely hard to believe. So unless any proof can be provided...
    Not sure how that would be possible, since it was something I heard. Not really sure if it is true or not. If it is a young unknown skater there may be no proof. Time will tell, might just have to wait and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    Not sure how that would be possible, since it was something I heard. Not really sure if it is true or not. If it is a young unknown skater there may be no proof. Time will tell, might just have to wait and see.
    If this skater has all her triples and is training a 3A, I think we would have heard something about her by now.

    Like Ziggy, I find this hard to believe. I can certainly believe that a young skater enjoyed some improvement under his guidance, maybe even major improvement. But if Orser can take someone from no doubles to all her triples in less than two years, why couldn't he help his higher profile skaters more with their jumps?

    But this is besides the point, because Hanyu doesn't need help major help with his jumps. I'm not sure what exactly Orser is supposed to accomplish that Hanyu can't get while training in Japan, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    If this skater has all her triples and is training a 3A, I think we would have heard something about her by now.

    Like Ziggy, I find this hard to believe. I can certainly believe that a young skater enjoyed some improvement under his guidance, maybe even major improvement. But if Orser can take someone from no doubles to all her triples in less than two years, why couldn't he help his higher profile skaters more with their jumps?

    But this is besides the point, because Hanyu doesn't need help major help with his jumps. I'm not sure what exactly Orser is supposed to accomplish that Hanyu can't get while training in Japan, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.
    To answer your question then, I think Hanyu or anyone would come to Orser as a coach for his experience and guidance in developing someone to the podium worlds or the Olympics. Orser has gotten himself to two Olympic medals and multiple world medals. To me a great coach is way beyond teaching elements, which don't get me wrong, are important. However, if you can't get your skaters mind to the point of competing and winning in the big events, it really doesn't matter how great you teach jumps. I am sure that their are some great coaches who teach jumps, but don't know what to do when the big day comes. All I can say is that Orser got himself to many major events and won them, and then he managed one skater to an Olympic gold and world titles. So I think that Hanyu is coming to him to gain the experience of how to prepare, to plan, and get your training and mind around being the champion before you actually compete. That is what I think Orser offers over most other coaches.

    Now concerning this young skater who is training larger jumps with Orser. You all said that Orser can't bring someone from a lower level skater to larger jumps. And I simply told you that I heard that this isn't so, and in fact this girl had come a long way very fast under Orser, therefore you must be wrong about his teaching. I was told that their was a story on the internet about her, but I haven't been able to find it. So sorry.

  10. #90

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    That's it, programer. Brian knows how to train skaters to be champions. And, how to deal with disappointment, too. He's been up and down and seen it all. If anyone can teach elite skaters how to cope it is Brian O.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    I have heard that Brian puts on seminars for young skaters and also has many young skaters that he works with. One of my friends who coaches at the same rink said Brian took on a young skater who didn't even have double jumps two years ago, and she is now training triple axels. I don't know many coaches who in two years can take someone thru their doubles, triples and to a jump that many females would never even try let alone do. Are you all sure you know what you are talking about?
    I am so glad you wrote this!

    When i read about people saying that about him i just shake my head... good at teaching quads and triples but not basic jumps... rediculous. Furthermore, the implication is that Hanyu just blindly chose Brian without knowing what strengths Brian has that would enhance Hanyu. Brian is not a good coach just because he's an olympic medalist. The guy is good.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I'm sorry but this is extremely hard to believe. So unless any proof can be provided...
    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    Not sure how that would be possible, since it was something I heard. Not really sure if it is true or not. If it is a young unknown skater there may be no proof. Time will tell, might just have to wait and see.
    "Proof" can only be provided if and when a young unknown skater shows what he or she can do in competition. So yes, only time will tell.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    "Proof" can only be provided if and when a young unknown skater shows what he or she can do in competition. So yes, only time will tell.
    Could agree more. Well said.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasperBoy View Post
    That's it, programer. Brian knows how to train skaters to be champions.
    Does he? He was successful with Kim Yuna, but she was such a talent she very well may have become a champion regardless of her coach. And that's one skater, not skaters.

    And, how to deal with disappointment, too. He's been up and down and seen it all. If anyone can teach elite skaters how to cope it is Brian O.
    It's one thing to experience something oneself, and it's quite another to impart any lessons learned on someone else. And for me at least, Orser's reactions and attitude in the K&C when his students don't do well don't exactly inspire confidence that he has learned to deal with disappointment. JMO.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

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    PJ Kwong interviewed Brian around the time of Worlds and it gave wonderful insight into his coaching philosophy and shone a little light on the man himself. I know these segments are short and processed to sell, so how much can you really glean about the reality of his training technique, but I have to say in those short minutes I was really impressed by his warm but firm approach and, well gee golly I'll say it, if I were a skater in need of a coach, I'd be drawn towards him.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I think Hanyu has his own smooth style somewhat similar to Johnny's graceful way of flowing over the ice -- but I don't see Hanyu's style of movement drastically changing. Hopefully, Hanyu will be able to develop more endurance and maturity, and also learn how to get up quickly and continue skating after a fall, w/o pausing so long and hanging his head.
    Well, I think Hanyu's stamnia problems more likely can be attributed to him suffering asthma than to coaching situation / practice condition he has in Japan. I remember an interview where he stated that due to this he can't practice longer than 2 hours. - Fixing this problem might be even more difficult abroad than back home in Japan (at least it will cost more to get proper health care in Canada).

    Beside from that I fear that it's a bit too early for Hanyu to make such a big move. I'd rather wanted him to make such a change in one or let's say two years. He is only 17 and will now live in a foreign country with a complete different mentality. I wonder if he'll be able to handel it, though I hope he will prove my concerns being wrong.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    Does he? He was successful with Kim Yuna, but she was such a talent she very well may have become a champion regardless of her coach. And that's one skater, not skaters.

    It's one thing to experience something oneself, and it's quite another to impart any lessons learned on someone else. And for me at least, Orser's reactions and attitude in the K&C when his students don't do well don't exactly inspire confidence that he has learned to deal with disappointment. JMO.
    I think you forget that Yuna came to him when she was only 15 years old, and he worked with her for many years before she became what you saw in the Olympics. In 2005 jr worlds she did a triple toe triple toe, and had issues with other triples as her score was very low, and she was a long way to doing a triple triple combo with a lutz. So I would say that the outcome of Yuna is five years of work by Orser and his team. Have any other skaters dedicated five years to the effort of his training other then Yuna?

    Other coaches had skaters who had similar jumps to Yuna in 2005, where were they in 2010 and why didn't they do the same with their skaters?

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    So I would say that the outcome of Yuna is five years of work by Orser and his team. Have any other skaters dedicated five years to the effort of his training other then Yuna?
    Well, I remember the history slightly differently. IIRC, they started work together on a temporary basis during 2006-2007 season, then Orser decided to work with Yuna long-term after 2007 World.

    Concerning 3Lz-3T, it was not the original plan. They changed the combination from 3F-3T to 3Lz-3T because she got an edge call on her flip. Otherwise, they may have kept 3F-3T for the olympic season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    I think you forget that Yuna came to him when she was only 15 years old, and he worked with her for many years before she became what you saw in the Olympics. In 2005 jr worlds she did a triple toe triple toe, and had issues with other triples as her score was very low, and she was a long way to doing a triple triple combo with a lutz. So I would say that the outcome of Yuna is five years of work by Orser and his team. Have any other skaters dedicated five years to the effort of his training other then Yuna?

    Other coaches had skaters who had similar jumps to Yuna in 2005, where were they in 2010 and why didn't they do the same with their skaters?
    Just to correct. YuNa met Brian for the first time in 2006 summer after she won 2006 Jr. Worlds, where she showed 3f-3t. Brian became her coach on Feb. 2007 a month before 2007 Worlds.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProgramerUSFS View Post
    I think you forget that Yuna came to him when she was only 15 years old, and he worked with her for many years before she became what you saw in the Olympics. In 2005 jr worlds she did a triple toe triple toe, and had issues with other triples as her score was very low, and she was a long way to doing a triple triple combo with a lutz. So I would say that the outcome of Yuna is five years of work by Orser and his team. Have any other skaters dedicated five years to the effort of his training other then Yuna?

    Other coaches had skaters who had similar jumps to Yuna in 2005, where were they in 2010 and why didn't they do the same with their skaters?
    Programmer I do think people are being wrong about Orser, but you right now are being incredibly unfair to Kim and her previous coaches. Kim had incredible jumps before she ever stepped foot on Orser's door. First of all, Kim's score at Junior Worlds was not low. She had a bad short program because she fell on her triple loop. A jump Orser was never able to fix. In fact she landed it more as a Junior. She landed 6 gorgeous triples in her long program..She scored about 110.26 on her free skate which is a huge score back than from a junior. She was about almost 14 points higher in the free than the person who took bronze. Took second to Asada, who did an incredible jumping feat.

    Second as for the triple lutz/triple toe. Yu-na actually landed that combination in competition before she went to Orser. Here's the evidence. http://www.isuresults.com/results/jg..._FS_scores.pdf

    So she was doing that and the 3flip/3toe before Orser. Its just the why the scoring system works it didn't make sense for her to do the 3lutz/3toe a harder combo over the 3flip/3toe because it turned out to be the same base value in the end. She added it when she got ! on her flip.

    I think Orser did an amazing job with Kim, but Kim had incredible jumps before she went to him.

    Orser did help her with the flip though and other than the double axel, Gao now has a 3flip/3toe under him.
    Last edited by bek; 04-29-2012 at 03:17 PM.

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